Healers that don't want to DPS are like DPSes who refuse to move out of AoEs.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Do you even know what a strawman argument is?

Anyway, my comment still remains. If you are going to push performance out of other classes, be prepared to push your own in every way possible.

I'm an old FFXI player. We always brought foods for every intense fight. I still do in FFXIV. If you are going to complain about performance from someone else without even maximizing your own, in my eyes you have no right.

The one you just made.

I reiterate, your food usage standard wouldn't exempt healers, thus it's a completely irrelevant argument. It also doesn't address the actual criticism people have towards heal only healers: that they aren't equally contributing. No one is demanding anyone optimize and perform their select role perfectly. They simply want to see an effort put forth. At this current time, content is too undertuned, which leads to healers having frequent amounts of downtime. I recently did Sohm Al Hard and opened with Divine Seal + Regen + Asylum on the tank once she grab everything. Despite having six mobs attacking her, I had to cast Cure II once in roughly 15-20 seconds. Am I to stand around doing nothing because that's precise what would happen if I only healed.

[Mycow8me]

The one you just made.

I reiterate, your food usage standard wouldn't exempt healers, thus it's a completely irrelevant argument. It also doesn't address the actual criticism people have towards heal only healers: that they aren't equally contributing. No one is demanding anyone optimize and perform their select role perfectly. They simply want to see an effort put forth. At this current time, content is too undertuned, which leads to healers having frequent amounts of downtime. I recently did Sohm Al Hard and opened with Divine Seal + Regen + Asylum on the tank once she grab everything. Despite having six mobs attacking her, I had to cast Cure II once in roughly 15-20 seconds. Am I to stand around doing nothing because that's precise what would happen if I only healed.

Did you ever stop to think that current content tuning may have been in large part due to the mentality and Healer DPS meta created by people like you who think its irrelevant to bring DPS food to increase DPS or even dodge AOES cuz that may alienate their ability to dps for a few seconds but at the same time think its relevant for healers to DPS.

Every single time one of these thread comes up the argument seems solely based on dungeon content. Oh look you brought up a dungeon scenario. Ok I'm sorry the healer didn't shave off 5 minutes of your run time. Its 5 minutes of your life you can't get back. I'm really sorry for you that your playing a game you enjoy so much that you cant stand a healer not saving you 5 minutes.

I've about lost it with these millennials and their ways. You want efficiency but at the same time don't even care if you are a part of the problem.

At some point you got to ask yourself do you even enjoy this game anymore or are you going to pick it apart, dissect it and find everything that you think is wrong or someone else is doing wrong even though at the end of the day you still beat the dungeon/raid. I don't get you ppl anymore.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Did you ever stop to think that current content tuning may have been in large part due to the mentality and Healer DPS meta created by people like you who think its irrelevant to bring DPS food to increase DPS or even dodge AOES cuz that may alienate their ability to dps for a few seconds but at the same time think its relevant for healers to DPS.

Every single time one of these thread comes up the argument seems solely based on dungeon content. Oh look you brought up a dungeon scenario. Ok I'm sorry the healer didn't shave off 5 minutes of your run time. Its 5 minutes of your life you can't get back. I'm really sorry for you that your playing a game you enjoy so much that you cant stand a healer not saving you 5 minutes.

I've about lost it with these millennials and their ways. You want efficiency but at the same time don't even care if you are a part of the problem.

At some point you got to ask yourself do you even enjoy this game anymore or are you going to pick it apart, dissect it and find everything that you think is wrong or someone else is doing wrong even though at the end of the day you still beat the dungeon/raid. I don't get you ppl anymore.

Yes, because 53 Crit has any impact on current dungeons. Either you do not realize how little that actually contributes to overall output or you're being deliberately obtuse. Food has nothing to do with healer DPS nor does it in anyway influence tuning. Healing potency is absurdly high and we outgear the vast majority of content at release. Content is tuned this way to make it accessible to even the lowest common denominator. Every single person using food isn't going to amount to even a fraction of a healer utilizing their DPS abilities. Not to mention, you continuously ignore the actual criticism. Only one role in this game can literally stand around doing nothing and it's considered acceptable by a portion of the community. And for what's it worth, I dodge just fine. Do not presume how I play the game because I dislike people who are lazy.

This applies to every level of content. Even Savage doesn't hit hard enough to warrant constant healing unless one of the healers attempts to solo. You will always have ample opportunity to DPS in any fight in this entire game. Now I do want to clarify, I, in no way, expect progression players to be optimizing. You are learning. That is a perfectly reasonable excuse to focus on your main job. Tanks typically stay in tank stance until they know the fight better.

Spare me your millennial crap. For one, they aren't my generation. Second, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject at hand. You keep trying to equate two scenarios that are neither comparable nor even consistent. Let's try this once more. If we apply your food standard to every piece of content, healers will also be expected to follow it. Therefore, your argument has no basis because healers wouldn't be exempted.

Perhaps you don't "get us people" because you ignore the actual argument. You continuous bring up wholly irrelevant comparisons and insinuate we only want perfection when we actually want effort. Why should 3/6 other players be expected to utilize everything in their arsenal while two get to hide under some nebulous excuse?

Tanks: Maintain aggro; DPS; rotate cooldowns
DPS: Deal damge; dodge avoidable damage; use support abilities
Healers: Heal; DPS... but only if you feel like it

One thing is not like the others.

I will take a healer who DPSs without Cleric or panics out of it quickly because they are putting forth an effort and I wish to encourage it. The healers I take issue with are those who refuse to DPS out of some silly principle.

[Lexia]

Spare me your millennial crap. For one, they aren't my generation.

Sorry to go off track but how old are you/what generation are you? My age probably be dumped in as a millennial which I reject, cause I find people 10 years younger then me to have completely different view of the world. Cause apparently anyone born from early 80s-2000s is considered a millennial. I just like to see what people think cause the term millennial has turned more from a generational thing to just how a certain group of people act. Ok back to your originally schedule thread.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Sorry to go off track but how old are you/what generation are you? My age probably be dumped in as a millennial which I reject, cause I find people 10 years younger then me to have completely different view of the world. Cause apparently anyone born from early 80s-2000s is considered a millennial. I just like to see what people think cause the term millennial has turned more from a generational thing to just how a certain group of people act. Ok back to your originally schedule thread.

I usually attribute the millennial age to 90s, but I'm 29 myself. May be in the same boat as you lol

[Mycow8me]

Yes, because 53 Crit has any impact on current dungeons. Either you do not realize how little that actually contributes to overall output or you're being deliberately obtuse. Food has nothing to do with healer DPS nor does it in anyway influence tuning. Healing potency is absurdly high and we outgear the vast majority of content at release. Content is tuned this way to make it accessible to even the lowest common denominator. Every single person using food isn't going to amount to even a fraction of a healer utilizing their DPS abilities. Not to mention, you continuously ignore the actual criticism. Only one role in this game can literally stand around doing nothing and it's considered acceptable by a portion of the community. And for what's it worth, I dodge just fine. Do not presume how I play the game because I dislike people who are lazy.

This applies to every level of content. Even Savage doesn't hit hard enough to warrant constant healing unless one of the healers attempts to solo. You will always have ample opportunity to DPS in any fight in this entire game. Now I do want to clarify, I, in no way, expect progression players to be optimizing. You are learning. That is a perfectly reasonable excuse to focus on your main job. Tanks typically stay in tank stance until they know the fight better.

Spare me your millennial crap. For one, they aren't my generation. Second, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject at hand. You keep trying to equate two scenarios that are neither comparable nor even consistent. Let's try this once more. If we apply your food standard to every piece of content, healers will also be expected to follow it. Therefore, your argument has no basis because healers wouldn't be exempted.

Perhaps you don't "get us people" because you ignore the actual argument. You continuous bring up wholly irrelevant comparisons and insinuate we only want perfection when we actually want effort. Why should 3/6 other players be expected to utilize everything in their arsenal while two get to hide under some nebulous excuse?

Tanks: Maintain aggro; DPS; rotate cooldowns
DPS: Deal damge; dodge avoidable damage; use support abilities
Healers: Heal; DPS... but only if you feel like it

One thing is not like the others.

I will take a healer who DPSs without Cleric or panics out of it quickly because they are putting forth an effort and I wish to encourage it. The healers I take issue with are those who refuse to DPS out of some silly principle.

Oh look your picking and choosing what is viable to increase overall output. Healers don't have to be exempt for it to be relevant. You want overall output increased, you want healers dpsing, but think a party with all dps using food is irrelevant. Your basing the food argument on dungeons again which you even say yourself was "designed for the lowest denominator."
Were going in cirlces because you think my argument is invalid and I don't. Period.

Healers don't have to dps to beat a dungeon, raid, or anything. They DO have to heal for it to be completed. You wanting them to DPS to increase output is perfectly fine. I'm not even against that ideology but if you are not willing to maximize your own class's role which was created specifically for DPS then in my opinion you have no right to call out another class for not doing more than what they are required to do.

You seem to think every situation will have no X factor or no possible emergency situation in the future. A healer not doing anything now should be using this time to DPS cause it is considered to be NOTHING but "downtime." It cannot be "conserving MP for emergencies." Suddenly the other healer dies along with some other deaths and you are at half MP from dpsing. This is purely speculation but how do you prepare for it if you can only be expected to spend your downtime DPSing. What if your party does not have a bard. Do we only apply the argument to dungeons?

I really don't care to continue this anymore though. Some arguing about the "criticisms of healers who are choosing not to dps at any given time" is very different from someone who is not putting forth any effort at all. It is two very different arguments which you seem to think I'm ignoring the latter when I'm not. Even the first post I made in this thread explicitly stated my thoughts on dungeons and DPS clocks.

If you want to pretend to make my argument irrelevant because healers can use food too, go ahead. Overall output includes DPS using food and if the healers are DPSing, they can use food too to improve it. MY argument has been from the start, if you aren't willing to use food as a DPS to increase your potential and maximize it, in my opinion you don't have the right to complain about what the healer is doing and I remain by that stance. Period.

I apologize if the Millennials comment offended you but I'm tired of a generation of gamers that find they need to complain even when they win. In my days of FFXI after fun fights, I was just happy to win and enjoyed the battle. These days the community and FFXIV playerbase is so fixated on efficiency and getting it done faster they don't seem to care about anything else and it makes me jaded.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Oh look your picking and choosing what is viable to increase overall output. Healers don't have to be exempt for it to be relevant. You want overall output increased, you want healers dpsing, but think a party with all dps using food is irrelevant. Your basing the food argument on dungeons again which you even say yourself was "designed for the lowest denominator."
Were going in cirlces because you think my argument is invalid and I don't. Period.

Healers don't have to dps to beat a dungeon, raid, or anything. They DO have to heal for it to be completed. You wanting them to DPS to increase output is perfectly fine. I'm not even against that ideology but if you are not willing to maximize your own class's role which was created specifically for DPS then in my opinion you have no right to call out another class for not doing more than what they are required to do.

Not picking and choosing whatsoever. We were discussing healer DPS on a general scale. I do use food when it's relevant to the content I participate it.

You're doing it again. Food usage does not compare to criticising players who ignore a third of their toolkit. As illustrated in another thread, a White Mage will actually pull higher overall potency than a Dragoon on six targets. That is absurd, and no amount of food buffs can come even remotely close. Regardless, it's the fact only one role can ignore a portion of their abilities I take umbrage with.

You seem to think every situation will have no X factor or no possible emergency situation in the future. A healer not doing anything now should be using this time to DPS cause it is considered to be NOTHING but "downtime." It cannot be "conserving MP for emergencies." Suddenly the other healer dies along with some other deaths and you are at half MP from dpsing. This is purely speculation but how do you prepare for it if you can only be expected to spend your downtime DPSing. What if your party does not have a bard. Do we only apply the argument to dungeons?

I really don't care to continue this anymore though. Some arguing about the "criticisms of healers who are choosing not to dps at any given time" is very different from someone who is not putting forth any effort at all. It is two very different arguments which you seem to think I'm ignoring the latter when I'm not. Even the first post I made in this thread explicitly stated my thoughts on dungeons and DPS clocks.

Damage in FFXIV is entirely scripted. Once you have run any piece of content enough times, you ought to know everything. Does that mean there won't be those occasional surprises? Of course not. But you adjust. No one has argued healers should DPS above all else. Healing will always be their primary focus. Once you've establish the pace and have a good estimation on your healing requirements, you adjust accordingly. I'll default into content with Cleric on and if I notice my co-healer struggling, I'll change my tactics to accommodate them better. If we both have it on, that tells me they want to share both roles and I'll make a mental note to support them. Waiting for something to happen often times wastes your abilities. The game simply isn't reactionary like that.

Contrary to what it may sound like, I do not actually like this DPS meta. Being a DPS main and a frequent tank, I prefer to heal whenever I swap roles just for a change of pace. I want content to better scale towards healing intensity or to have healing potencies reduced so it isn't simply press two buttons and the tank goes from 7k HP to max. It's one of the reasons I enjoy healing in The Feast. It's intense enough to keep me focused predominantly on healing but not too absurd degrees unless people don't know what they're doing.

I apologize if the Millennials comment offended you but I'm tired of a generation of gamers that find they need to complain even when they win. In my days of FFXI after fun fights, I was just happy to win and enjoyed the battle. These days the community and FFXIV playerbase is so fixated on efficiency and getting it done faster they don't seem to care about anything else and it makes me jaded.

It didn't offend. I just find it a lazy dismissal. You are more than welcome to disagree, but my age shouldn't be a factor. Still, no harm done. Some complaints are still, however some I feel are perfectly valid. All I want from people-- no matter the role they play-- is an honest effort. If they're new or inexperienced, I'll have a great deal of patience with them. If we wipe because the healer did try DPSing and messed up. No big deal. I've done that. I've also messed up big pulls. I certainly wouldn't jump on them for because hey, they're trying. And that's all I ask.