Trend: Kicked for PvPing in PvP

[Chevronone]

ps: I'm one of those garo pvpers you seem to not like, at least you know I will not continue participating after I've collected all the shineys I wanted.

I don't think veteran pvpers have any issues Garo people per se, it's the Garos that literally started pvping this patch for the first coming into FL with the entitled mentality that everyone who has been pvping for years, suffering with horrendous queues, must now suddenly drop what they love doing (pvping) and start hugging ice to win them their mounts.

They'll get their mounts and never look back at pvp while the rest of us are still here. So no, I don't care about getting random Garos their mounts, just like they don't care about PvP.

[Stormrider]

In 24 man ice is way more important then kills. It also it sounds like you have a "different play style" then most. Also multiple kicks implies you complain when people ask you to change and have a rep. I have never seen you, but people who have a rep get booted as soon as seeing doing their own thing.

[Cabalabob]

PvP = player vs player, nowhere in there is the word kill. You as a player are supposed to be completing your objective before the enemy team does. In shatter, killing enemies has very little impact on this goal. A kill loses the enemy team 5 points and gains your team 5 points, killing a big ice gains your team 300 points. If there is one enemy attacking a small ice, sure, kill them, the points they gained alone on that ice will be outweighed by the points they lost by you killing them, but on a big ice you're better off contributing towards that 300 points to get as much of it away from the enemy teams as you can.

If you want a killing fest, go and play slaughter, I know it's 50 capped and that sucks, but if kills is all you want that's where you go, not shatter.

[Llus]

Large Ice: 300 points available
Small Ice: 70 points available


Assuming 50 active combatants (DPS):
Large Ice translates into roughly 6 points per combatant
Small Ice translates into roughly 1.4 points per combatant (I use the term roughly because ice is magic resistant and some DPS may not contribute as much due to stuns, sleeps or not getting max DPS from their rotations)

Killing an enemy player: +5 points for your team, -5 points for the enemy team

At large ice, killing 1 enemy player effectively gives your team +10 points over the team in which your PvPer defeated their PvEer and +5 points over the other team.
At small ice, when a large group is present your +5 points for a kill is 2-3 times more points than you could have gotten from the small ice; however 50 DPS per small ice is rare and your contribution may be more effective by destroying the ice.

So, killing an enemy player at the large ice is doubly effective against the team that lost a player and just slightly less than your contribution against the other team.

Imagine though if your entire team (appx 16 DPS, not including healers - assuming you have healers) kills one other team (24 players - assuming your DPS is good enough to do so):

+5 points per kill for your team, -5 points for the enemy team

effective points for NOT DPSing the large ice: 120 points, points for killing the large ice: 100, you're already 90 points ahead of the team you focused down (see below)

the team you killed lost 120 points, so their net gain for the ice is +30 points (because your team didn't DPS the ice, the distribution is 50/50 for 150 points)

The third team however has gained +150 points and they have an advantage over you of +30 points.

those +30 points will require that you kill 6 of their members to break even. given that you killed 24 other players; it's likely that at least 6 of your team members now have fever giving them an increased DPS output and making subsequent skirmishes more favorable for your team.

Even splitting your DPS to physical -> ice, magical -> players will result in an advantage for your team by the end of the match due to point gain, enemy point reduction and your increased DPS in the form of fevers and highs.

So when you see someone trying to kill a member of an opposing team while you're at the ice; it will give your team an advantage for you to help out.

The game is not won on the first 2 ice or by ice or kills alone.

Garo people: support those people getting fevers and highs, their contribution is more than double that of those people destroying ice because not only did they gain your team 5 points for a kill, they also took away 5 points from another team and when they get fever or high their DPS output increases substantially.

Veteran PVPers (and Garo people): small ice gives the largest ROI in terms of DPS/TIME:POINTS unless a small number of players from another team is at the small ice, in which case kills give the largest ROI both in reducing points from the other team, reducing damage done by the other team to the ice and gaining an easy +5 per kill

In the end, this mode is like any other mode. Various strategies work and you need to be able to adapt on the fly to how your team is performing and what the other teams are doing.

[Stormrider]

info.

What you don't take into account is the three team variable. If a team kills to many of one team and score slides out of window of victory. "lets kill them and pad are Hand achievements." So killing to many is an extremely bad strategy, unless you know how awesome your pug is.

[Llus]

What you don't take into account is the three team variable. If a team kills to many of one team and score slides out of window of victory. "lets kill them and pad are Hand achievements." So killing to many is an extremely bad strategy, unless you know how awesome your pug is.

Reread, I did include the third team.


But let's assume that the 3rd team did 100% of the damage to the large ice while you were killing the other team. That effectively means the 3rd team is up on you by 180 (since they got 300 points for the ice, you got 120 points for destroying the 2nd team and the 2nd team is at 0 points because they can't have negative points). So at the next ice, you kill the 3rd team instead of the 2nd team and again assume the 2nd team got all the points from the ice. Now you've reduced the 3rd team's points from the first 2 large ices to 180 while your team is now at 240 and the 2nd team is at 300. However, at this point your team should have 6+ players with fevers effectively giving you an insurmountable DPS advantage.

This does assume DPS know their PVP rotations, healers know how to stay alive and keep other players alive, but the point is that people that PvP in these casual PvP modes are actively contributing as much or MORE than those that are practicing their rotations on a striking dummy and should be given assistance to secure kills and get their fevers and highs just as those that want to DPS ice should be given assistance.

[wicked-one]

Would never Kick someone PVPing, even thou Shatter is more PVE where you can hit other players by incident.

But some good people killing off enemy players can disrupt the enemy team enough to make the rest do their points on ice safe.

You cant calculate that... you have to take in account the Mana the healer looses for a rez, or the time the player looses by getting rezzed/rezzing himself and get back from base to combat...
Weakness debuff... you can easyily kill him off 2nd time... double weakness...

thats all stuff why you cant "calculate that stuff" like you cant say "that soccer team got the more expensive players thus they must win"... not even accounting morale of the party (not talking bout the substats here!)

Killing off people in Shatter is important in my opinion, but as you see in this debate, many people think the only key to win is "who gets there first, wins"

[loreleidiangelo]

I mean, in an ideal world, Shatter would operate under the basis of "bads/newer players = get ice, baller PVP vets = kill dudes" but I think a lot of the "guys stop chasing, focus ice" whining you see in alliance chat comes from the fact that skill level is a variable and unless you can actually secure that kill, you're just tickling the other guy, making their healer work a little (not much net gain due to how crap healers are at doing anything to ice) but otherwise just wasting time.

So it's not necessarily that "zerg ice, ignore doods" is the CORRECT strategy, it's just that its usually the safest strategy when dealing with uncoordinated randos of wildly varying skill levels.

[TiaHariberux3]

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In shatter it's actually +10 for each kill not +5.

[Februs]

This kind of thing has been an on and off trend since Shatter was released, so it's not all that shocking to see it happening again. It's just one of the many reasons why that game mode has been widely disliked by avid PvP'ers since it was released. It is a terrible trend, though. Kicking anyone out of PvP for actually doing PvP is kind of moronic, especially when the common mentality on how to win in Shatter is often wrong. There's no question that killing ice scores the most points, but it's not always the best option. If you're cut off by an enemy team or just unlucky with the spawns, then you're better off to pick at the enemy strays rather than bleeding more points trying to get to something you'll never score majority on. Or you could just back-door an enemy base. There's always other options in PvP.