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  1. #1
    Player
    Duelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    3,965
    Character
    Duelle Urelle
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Vhailor View Post
    I'm not sure I agree here. The playerbase is only obsessed with DPS because SE's content encourages it.
    Not so much the content, but the way both the battle system and class design is tuned. That's what has allowed bad habits to form.
    Some content involves fairly brutal DPS checks (typically EX Primals and Savage Raids), which obviously encourages players to optimize DPS. That said, mechanics-based content encourages it too, since SE doesn't effectively counter people 'pushing' mechanics and thereby simplifying a fight via higher-than-intended DPS. At an even more fundamental level, the design of FFXIV encourages rapid-fire spamming of short pieces of content, rather than more involved content that doesn't require, nor benefit from, spamming.
    The thing is that DPS checks are there to challenge the DPSers in the group. There's encounters that are tank encounters (read: your tank not messing up leads to you getting the clear) and healing-intensive encounters. The third part of that is DPS check encounters.

    This said, it isn't something mechanics alone can fix. You need to look at gameplay for the three roles as well.
    They could design mechanics that punish rapid damage-dealing
    This is counter-intuitive and sort of pisses on the DPS. I was not a fan of this when they tried it with Pharos Sirius (adds on the first boss spawn at certain HP percentages).
    or mechanics that draw the attention of the party away from a boss for periods of time.
    Unfortunately, for SE this translates into "more Dive Bombs and clones of Final Liberation". Add control would be a good approach, but I've yet to see SE try it in a way that is not "here's something else for you to hit for a while".
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    * The sad thing is that FFXIV turned RDM into a turret, and people think that's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to combine sword and magic into something more, not spend the bulk of gameplay spamming spells and jump into melee for only 3 GCDs before scurrying back to the back line like good little casters.
    * Design ideas:
    Red Mage - COMPLETE (https://tinyurl.com/y6tsbnjh), Chemist - Second Pass (https://tinyurl.com/ssuog88), Thief - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/vdjpkoa), Rune Fencer - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/y3fomdp2)

  2. #2
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    12,877
    Character
    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Duelle View Post
    Not so much the content, but the way both the battle system and class design is tuned. That's what has allowed bad habits to form.
    If it works because of what's designed, then they aren't bad habits. What works, works. The only thing that can be successfully while being less "skill-productive" is easy or narrowly involved content. That's it. Our dps-centric meta is actually more broadly involved for tanks and healers than more strictly divided or arbitrarily limited roles. That's not to say it isn't stunted—DPS have minimal responsibilities, and because their involvement/contribution is so singular in type and effect, it doesn't leave as much for healers or tanks to interact with as might otherwise be possible—but as I'm pretty sure the areas you take most issue with (going by your other posts, the role-blending in the "DPS meta" (really the "when secondary contribution is less effective than primary contribution right now, use primary contribution meta") are actually the ones that are more skill productive, those things are the few that least allow for bad habits to form.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duelle View Post
    The thing is that DPS checks are there to challenge the DPSers in the group. There's encounters that are tank encounters (read: your tank not messing up leads to you getting the clear) and healing-intensive encounters. The third part of that is DPS check encounters.
    Consider though: every healing intensive part of a fight that is not pure unmitigatable damage uses more than just the healer; DPS and tanks are expected not to step in shit, to appropriately use CDs, etc. I see no issue in DPS checks being similarly multi-role, and I would actually very much like for "tank encounters" to be less dependent on a single person's having hit a scripted button at the right time, irrelevant to anything else happening in the fight or anything else that the party is doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duelle View Post
    [Designing mechanics to punish rapid damage-dealing] is counter-intuitive and sort of pisses on the DPS. I was not a fan of this when they tried it with Pharos Sirius (adds on the first boss spawn at certain HP percentages).
    Agreed, though I actually liked it in that particular fight (Pharos 1st boss, pirate + dogs) because it allowed me to time add waves to crystal formation, AoE burst availability, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duelle View Post
    Unfortunately, for SE this translates into "more Dive Bombs and clones of Final Liberation". Add control would be a good approach, but I've yet to see SE try it in a way that is not "here's something else for you to hit for a while".
    Renauds in T7. And... that's kind of it, sadly.
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