Should healers now be allowed to play how they choose to play?

[Judge_Xero]

So let's shift the effort levels a bit and you're the healer now that's not willing to contribute damage, but still get the job done. The other player is now in your mindset that the healer deserves a kick for not putting in enough effort. So where are we now?

Such a good view. Like really, how far should we lower the bar on acceptable play? I am so glad that the meta/playerbase pushes for optimal healer play styles over acceptance of the bare minimum, because of how low the bare minimum can be.

(Tank. DPS + SCH on auto follow) 90 minute dungeons. RIP when attendance alone becomes acceptable gameplay.

[Feyona]

Such a good view. Like really, how far should we lower the bar on acceptable play? I am so glad that the meta/playerbase pushes for optimal healer play styles over acceptance of the bare minimum, because of how low the bare minimum can be.

(Tank. DPS + SCH on auto follow) 90 minute dungeons. RIP when attendance alone becomes acceptable gameplay.

That ofc is extreme, dont think Ive ever experienced it tbh , bar the odd person going afk. but thats just my experience. My own stance is lack of choice thats all I dont really mind how others play, if they dont dps ill dps for them. but yes Im sure they dont want to spend all day in there.

[aleph_null]

That ofc is extreme, dont think Ive ever experienced it tbh , bar the odd person going afk. but thats just my experience. My own stance is lack of choice thats all I dont really mind how others play, if they dont dps ill dps for them. but yes Im sure they dont want to spend all day in there.

Personally I wouldn't kick, let alone harrass a healer who's not dpsing in easier contents like normal raid/trial or dungeons, but I don't think anyone can argue that such healers are objectively inferior to healers who can provide more dps while still keeping the same tank/party alive though. The latter obviously contribute more to the group and help finish the dungeon faster.

Overhealing is absolutely useless, a waste of resource (time/mp) as well as a detriment for the group (unnecessary aggro for the tank to overcome, which may disrupt their optimal rotation as well), so even as healers the goal should be to heal as little as possible while keeping everyone alive. I don't know any content that require you to cast heals non stop to keep the party/tank alive without overhealing, unless something is terribly wrong (tank not using cds, dps standing in avoidable aoe, people are undergeared).

I also think that not dpsing in easier contents is sorta acceptable, but when we move onto harder contents like ex trials or savage raids, the bar for "acceptable performance" should be higher. Instead of just healing, we should also include mitigation, aggro management, dps and other utilities like ast's cards. A sch who can't prepare shields before tank busters or raid wide aoe dmg and control pet actions, a whm who doesn't know when/how to be careful with aggro, an ast who doesn't know when to use disable and collective unconscious aren't playing at what I consider an acceptable level of performance in ex trials or savage raids.

[Gemina]

In regards of the auto following Scholar, this goes beyond the scope of the standard DPS healer vs non debates. Using this against those who are pro heals as a means to invalidate their reasoning for kicking a healer is skewed. The devs will chalk up just about anything as a "difference in play style", but the SCH auto following a tank is not a play style. This is a player who is taking advantage of the AI of the game, and has absolutely zero respect and courtesy for their group members. Let's stop pretending this is even remotely the same as a healer who is standing around and only being reactive.

I mentioned several pages back that the devs can't fix a difference of opinions within the community. They can however, fix technical issues with the game, or at least attempt to. The auto following scholar is without question something that is broken, and measures need to be taken to stop/prevent it. I don't know if the issue is with a low healing requirement in the game, if the fairy is too powerful, or what, but if a group can actually get a clear with an SCH on follow, it needs to change. It is a blatant technical issue with the game, and the devs should at least address it if they have no already.

I am not excusing a SCH who only heals, but it also should not be difficult to tell the difference between this SCH and one on AF. The former is still going to react to damage telegraphs, cast shields, leeches, and adlo pre pull. The latter does absolutely nothing. No buffs, no cleanses, and you can forget about large pulls. You simply just cannot compare these two SCHs, and it should be common sense which one can be kicked because of a "difference in play style" and the one that should be kicked because they're just a dick.

[Judge_Xero]

In regards of the auto following Scholar, this goes beyond the scope of the standard DPS healer vs non debates. Using this against those who are pro heals as a means to invalidate their reasoning for kicking a healer is skewed. The devs will chalk up just about anything as a "difference in play style", but the SCH auto following a tank is not a play style.

Isn't it though? Maybe someone isn't capable of tracking player HPS levels and that's the reason for their choice to play a healer class with a pet. Summoning their pet to look after healing should be enough correct? As long as people aren't dying and getting healed that isn't enough to kick a healer because they are doing their job.

If we are going to accept the bare minimum healers where exactly do we draw the line?

Is:
/ac "Cure" <t>
/wait 10
/ac "Cure" <t>
/wait 10
/ac "Cure" <t>
/wait 10
/ac "Cure" <t>
/wait 10

:More acceptable than Pet/Follow/AFK?

[Gemina]

Isn't it though? Maybe someone isn't capable of tracking player HPS levels and that's the reason for their choice to play a healer class with a pet. Summoning their pet to look after healing should be enough correct? As long as people aren't dying and getting healed that isn't enough to kick a healer because they are doing their job.

If we are going to accept the bare minimum healers where exactly do we draw the line?

Is:
/ac "Cure" <t>
/wait 10
/ac "Cure" <t>
/wait 10
/ac "Cure" <t>
/wait 10
/ac "Cure" <t>
/wait 10

:More acceptable than Pet/Follow/AFK?

No, it's not a play style. That involves actually playing the game. The AF SCH can't react if they are AFK. You can argue that they can make macros to spam their abilities when available, but again, they are not even playing the game and these macros are even less effective because they might be going off at inopportune times similar to leaving pets on Sic. There is simply no comparing this SCH to one who is actively watching the group, but only healing. Nothing is acceptable about it, they are abusing the AI, and they don't belong in the queue.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

No, it's not a play style. That involves actually playing the game. The AF SCH can't react if they are AFK. You can argue that they can make macros to spam their abilities when available, but again, they are not even playing the game and these macros are even less effective because they might be going off at inopportune times similar to leaving pets on Sic. There is simply no comparing this SCH to one who is actively watching the group, but only healing. Nothing is acceptable about it, they are abusing the AI, and they don't belong in the queue.

Why? Using macros, which is actually a feature that is part of the game, involves playing the game. Don't be selective here now.

You mentioned that the argument is skewed. The whole premise why damage shouldn't be part of a healers job is skewed itself anyway. But let's focus on the disrespectful bit you mentioned earlier. Let us take the most zealous no-damage-healer for example here and only heals and allow me label it according to what I've understood so far why this mindset exists:
Not comfortable doing so
They're healing primarily, not DPS

Both are sugarcoated reasoning on why they shouldn't contribute with damage. So let's look at it from another perspective:
Not willing to improve as a player
Gets away with the same reward with less effort

In particular the last bit, doesn't that seem rather disrespectful towards other players? Reaping the same rewards while others are having virtually zero downtime between their GCDs? While the healer has a couple of seconds in between each heal? It's a whole different story if the incoming damage went up. So let's look at it from a similar standpoint this time. If healers aren't supposed to contribute in damage as it is not labeled as a DPS role, every other role can very well just eat any AoE they stand in while doing damage. It's a DPS/Tank role, after all. Not a Dodge/avoider role. It also increases the incoming damage and thus required healing output. Seems like a win win to me: Raises effort from those who puts in the least (healers only) while lowering those who put in the most (other roles). Equality at it's finest!

But this whole topic at hand is being blown out of proportion. In case you haven't realised, Gemina, the comparison was about equal effort investment and the hypocrisy involving the "arguments". On this response I corrected the AFK scholar with a more active, yet just as "disrespectful" kind.

[IttyBitty]

No, it's not a play style. That involves actually playing the game.

There is no functional difference between a SCH that runs around in circles while the fairy heals, or one that /follows while the fairy heals. Neither one is using their skills. Neither one, by any measure, would be classed as "playing the game", unless you are arbitrarily redefining what "playing the game" entails. How far in malms does a player have to move under their own power to be classed as "playing the game"? Does using auto-run count against them?

There is simply no comparing this SCH to one who is actively watching the group, but only healing.

Neither SCH is healing, as the fairy is fulfilling the healing duty. What is the functional difference? They are both contributing the exact same effort to the completion of the duty (ie none). Does the /follow SCH suddenly start counting as "playing the game" if they too are "watching the group"?

they are abusing the AI

It's...kind of what the AI was created to do? The fairy is designed to automatically heal. /Follow is designed to automatically follow another player. /Follow isn't perfect. It polls a direct A to B path between you and your target, and you will sometimes get stuck on things. You usually have to be paying at least some attention to stay with the group.

If they wanted, they could disable it in instances. They haven't. But that's neither here nor there.

[Gemina]

Why? Using macros, which is actually a feature that is part of the game, involves playing the game. Don't be selective here now.

Using macros still involves using a practical designed macro to use at an ideal time. A macro spamming cure every 10 seconds is not an ideal macro in ANY given situation. I will be selective because there is a clear difference.

You mentioned that the argument is skewed. The whole premise why damage shouldn't be part of a healers job is skewed itself anyway. But let's focus on the disrespectful bit you mentioned earlier.

Since I am not even talking about whether or not dmg should be part of their job, yes. Lets.

Let us take the most zealous no-damage-healer for example here and only heals and allow me label it according to what I've understood so far why this mindset exists:
Not comfortable doing so
They're healing primarily, not DPS

Both are sugarcoated reasoning on why they shouldn't contribute with damage. So let's look at it from another perspective:
Not willing to improve as a player
Gets away with the same reward with less effort

First. Not willing to improve as a player encompasses both of these SCHs, and serves to give your argument some weight. The problem with that is I'm not even talking about a player who does not want to improve. And a player who doesn't want to improve can also be neither of these SCHs. Me, you, everyone; there is always room for improvement. Even a DPS healer who keeps everyone on their feet. This doesn't mean they want to improve. And

On the opposite end of that coin, even the most skilled SCH at any given moment can say, "Eff it, I'm going to auto follow the tank this round." And I am actually inclined to believe that SCHs who do this do possess some skill, and are aware of the game enough to know that they can get away with it.

Second. The heals only SCH is still, hopefully, buffing the tank, staying out of bad shit, keeping fairy on obey and using her CDs effectively, or trying to, and can allow for the tank to pull bigger groups as both heals from SCH and fairy will be needed to take them all down. To say that these two SCHs are putting in the same effort is erroneous. However, I do agree that both get the reward. So are you going to sit there and tell me a SCH who only heals despite the differences I have hopefully made crystal clear doesn't deserve the clear?

In particular the last bit, doesn't that seem rather disrespectful towards other players?

I will never look at a SCH or any healer who doesn't DPS as being disrespectful. It's the reasons why they won't do it that leads me to that conclusion. Again, I WILL be selective.

Reaping the same rewards while others are having virtually zero downtime between their GCDs? While the healer has a couple of seconds in between each heal? It's a whole different story if the incoming damage went up. So let's look at it from a similar standpoint this time. If healers aren't supposed to contribute in damage as it is not labeled as a DPS role, every other role can very well just eat any AoE they stand in while doing damage. It's a DPS/Tank role, after all. Not a Dodge/avoider role.

There is a flaw in that argument: There is no Dodge/avoider role. Those are mechanics, not roles and everyone is expected to follow them if they can't/shouldn't be ignored, and this applies to all three roles.

It also increases the incoming damage and thus required healing output. Seems like a win win to me: Raises effort from those who puts in the least (healers only) while lowering those who put in the most (other roles). Equality at it's finest!

This is not a DPS healer vs heals only argument. I think you and I both know that these kind of arguments is akin to rearranging tables and chairs on the titanic.

But this whole topic at hand is being blown out of proportion. In case you haven't realised, Gemina, the comparison was about equal effort investment and the hypocrisy involving the "arguments". On this response I corrected the AFK scholar with a more active, yet just as "disrespectful" kind.

It still is. I am sitting here telling the community that the AF SCH puts in less effort than a heals only SCH.

[Gemina]

There is no functional difference between a SCH that runs around in circles while the fairy heals, or one that /follows while the fairy heals. Neither one is using their skills. Neither one, by any measure, would be classed as "playing the game", unless you are arbitrarily redefining what "playing the game" entails. How far in malms does a player have to move under their own power to be classed as "playing the game"? Does using auto-run count against them?

As stated in my last post, the heals only SCH is still staying out of bad, casting buffs, shields, cleansing, and using fairy CDs. SCHs have much more to do than just heal and kill, and it's becoming painstakingly more and more unacknowledged as these arguments drag on. CLEARLY, if a SCH or any healer is running/jumping around, emoting and the like, it is very disrespectful. It becomes very easy to label these players as such and kick them, or are their few that possess this kind of perception?

And you can use auto run/follow. I use it ALL the time. In the case of follow, I use it so I know when the tank stops, then I reassume control of my character to take down the trash.

Neither SCH is healing, as the fairy is fulfilling the healing duty. What is the functional difference? They are both contributing the exact same effort to the completion of the duty (ie none). Does the /follow SCH suddenly start counting as "playing the game" if they too are "watching the group"?

What I bolded there shows the unwillingness to see another perspective. The black and white treatment of healers. The absolutes. To answer your question, I've already stated that the /follow command is just fine so long as you engage the group when the fighting starts. They are still paying attention to what is going on, and reacting accordingly. The AFK SCH on /follow cannot do this, and is indisputably putting in less effort.

It's...kind of what the AI was created to do? The fairy is designed to automatically heal. /Follow is designed to automatically follow another player. /Follow isn't perfect. It polls a direct A to B path between you and your target, and you will sometimes get stuck on things. You usually have to be paying at least some attention to stay with the group.

Well, the thing is, gaming AI has been taken advantage of since the dawn of gaming so this really isn't news to anyone. But it is one thing to do it to get your win in a solo player game, and using it to your advantage in group play when others are expecting you to put in effort. That is why I pointed out that this is a broken aspect of SCH, and healing in this game in general. But that is another subject, that warrants a thread of its own, which is why I only briefly mentioned it to establish a point.

About the /follow not being perfect, that brings up another point because if a AF SCH gets caught on something, it will be cancelled unless the tank miraculously notices and maneuvers to avoid it. If not, you lose your healer as SCH is AFK which means the fairy is too. The heals only healer though? Still there and you may proceed.

If they wanted, they could disable it in instances. They haven't. But that's neither here nor there.

I'll go there. The fairy is supposed to assist the SCH, not outright take over all the healing. It's why I mentioned lowering their threshold. And I mean REALLY lower it. Fairy should be like, "Ummmm... tank is @40%, why aren't you healing him?" and then blast him with embrace. You could probably even increase their healing potency this way, or they wouldn't have had to nerf it already. 80% threshold though, and 300 potency combined with tank who barely takes damage? C'mon, really?

Thing is, many love that SCH can spend so much time in DPS stance, easily the same number of people who wish it had to heal more. The devs can't make both groups happy, so the only choice they have is either keep the status quo, or make both groups unhappy. The AFK SCH though, something, and I do mean something needs to be done about that. That is an in-game issue that players are abusing. It is just as bad as RMT. That is the level I put it at. These players should be banned.