[Tanks/Healers]: Are you disappointed there is no new job in 4.0?

[Zumi]

No cause I like how Paladin plays wouldn't switch to a new main.

[ffchampion]

i main DPS with a tank as 2nd and i was really really hoping that we did get Dancer as a healer class. It's actually one that i thought could have been really interesting and may have actually been enough for me to switch to it as my second or maybe even my main

[Kalsoa]

Very much so.

[Valenth]

Initially I was worried about the Q's. Then I thought about the balance and realized they've added a job so far now for all the different roles. Tank, Ranged Physical DPS and Healer introduced in HW and now Caster DPS and Melee DPS in SB. Every distinct role has gotten an additional job now, so it balances out well enough again in the long run. Besides, I'm just incredibly happy we get another melee DPS as that is my preferred role.

[Altena]

Actually, I'd like to point out how this is wrong and why PLD and WHM currently suffer the most for being different.

A PLD brings heavy mitigation to the raid, but mainly deals in physical mitigation.
A WHM brings heavy healing output, AoE and single alike.

Eh? If you actually read my post properly you would already see that I pointed out their skills have different mitigation types and percentage values.

However my core point remains the same, much like the core fundamentals of the three tank classes (and in retrospect the same goes for the three healers, with SCH having a bit of a unique thing going for it as it's based on a DPS class).
They are the same base class in terms of how they function, with some mechanic tacked onto the top of them to make them seem different.
Yes PLD focuses heavily on physical mitigation and DRK focuses on Magic. However this difference is literally 1 or 2 skills..

DRK has one... Yes one skill that makes people say they are the magic damage tank.
PLD has what... Sheltron? I mean you could argue Bulwark there but you could flip that and highlight that DRK also has Dark Dance which is close enough to equivalent.

However this argument isn't even about the fine details of what a job has and doesn't have.

The 3 tanks literally have the same base, with some form of mechanic overlayed over the top. Some might do things better than others, but that doesn't make them inherently different classes. They both achieve similar results, with similar kits.

I can almost gaurentee that a Tank main can play any of the three tank jobs to some level of reasonable success, regardless how little they play the job - due to the obvious similarities. Ask a MNK to jump on MCH? Yeah no.. Sorry but that just won't be very successful.

However, the content is balanced and focused around bringing any job and composition into a fight. Most of the player base is merely concerned with pushing out as much DPS as possible (again, keep in mind that all content is balanced around any composition, with Yoshi having even said nothing requires healers to DPS to complete it while specifically mentioning savage).

I never said they were balanced. I simply said they were the on such a similar level as a base role. Much more similar than a MCH and a DRG.. Which many people claim here.. "DPS is a DPS!"

This is also another glaring reason as to why adding another Tank or Healer to the current meta is just flat out a bad idea. They need to return PLD and WHM to some level of balance (sure, don't have to be a perfect equilibrium) before adding another broken job into the mix on either role.

If we're simply looking at what skill does what, yes, the classes are the same in the case of tanks and healers. Of course they need similar skills to fulfill the same role- this is called a kit. However, the application in the meta is what makes all the difference.

I cut a bunch of stuff from your post because it was rather irrelevant. Hope you don't mind.

I mean, are you not agreeing with me here then? Because it really seems like you are..

Of course they have a similar skill set, and of course they fill the same role. That is not even remotely what I am saying..

My point here is that a MCH is very different from a MNK and DRG, because they flat out don't fill the same role as many people claim. This is such a primary argument for the Tank and Healer only players that are so butthurt.

So many people are saying "DPS got MCH in HW!" (wow all them abbreviations).. So Tank and Healers are left out in the cold! It's so unfair. Wah wah..

My point is that DPS are very different from one another, and the stigma that people have of putting all DPS under one role heading is flat out wrong and a very close minded way of looking at it.

I do hope you realize that by going on about this like you are, you're single-handedly destroying your own previous argument right?

I had to actually highlight this very point twice before someone actually decided to say anything about it. I mean if you read my first post, I heavily hinted that the one major rebuttle here is NIN..

I then flat out stated it in the 2nd one. So yes I do realise this, because I mean... I even highlighted the only real valid arguments against my point.

By your own admission, Tanks really didn't get a new shiny because the new tank job added is copy paste. All the tank players who didn't want Paladin 2.0 have still gotten nothing. Just like DPS players who prefer a different experience in their DPS role (i.e. you breaking down DPS into multiple subcategories, when realistically after Heavensward it's either Melee, or Caster.) What about people who want to tank but just don't like the current tanks? Or want a difference in playstyle inside their preferred role?

As are the melee, as are the phys ranged.. Casters are about the only classes that have some degree of uniqueness to their design.
People are saying that because we got MCH, melee should be perfectly happy and don't need more variety. This is a key argument in so many Tank and Healer only players..
NIN itself was added because this game didn't have a thief/rogue/assassin style class to begin with and it was a large hole in the line up of job choices.

As for MCH being a caster, it really just isn't.. BRD? Sure I will give you that, it cast a cast time despite it not really playing like one. (It's an oGCD whore)..
MCH spends a very large portion of its DPS using the ammo mechanic which practically negates the cast bar anyway.
Ranged compared to a BLM or SMN? Yeah nah.. Still more different than DRK / WAR / PLD... Or WHM / AST / SCH...

If you can break DPS down into sub roles, then Tanks and Healers can be too, which means there's plenty of those demographics that have gotten nothing either.

Sure... If you can tank from range.. Or pull out some melee healers.. I mean there isn't much else to go with Tanks/Healers.. Do you have any ideas that haven't been done? There aren't any categories until there is enough differentiation between them.

Tanks don't have that.
Healers don't have that, at a push you could separate SCH from the other two - but even then, the healing side of SCH is fundamentally the same as the other two.
DPS? Well a ranged is nothing like a melee, and a support is really nothing like a caster..

[SachiBear]

I'm not, because I feel there needs to be more balancing between the 3 classes in each role. I think PLD and WHM need some fixing before they add anything new....

[Belhi]

/snip

You know Altena, I have actually forgotten the point you were trying to make to begin with. Tanks/healers shouldn't feel disappointed maybe?

Not that is going to make much difference. People who are disappointed aren't suddenly going to stop being disappointed because you tell them its not there turn. It is disappointing regardless of the logic behind it.

Its also not going to change any balance or queue side effects or lack there off, that result from the lack of new Jobs for Healers or tanks. The reality of the situation is that people are disappointed and we are getting two dps.

Beyond that I will just have to agree to disagree with you. I still find your logic flawed but I am not sure as to the point of arguing over it, at least in regards to this thread.

[Duelle]

Please don't kill astro ;-; I like astro, I'm good at astro. I even like doing pvp as astro. ;-;

The fact AST was built to mimic WHM and SCH is a huge problem, IMO. To me, that's something worthy of a redesign; "Killing it" might be better than leaving it as is and trying to build off it.

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I'm not bothered by the lack per se, but at the reasoning given. This is like their logic for making Au'ra look like hyurs with cosplay bits on them; they're convinced there's more people switching for more of the same and are not taking into account the new people DRK and AST attracted to tanking and healing. Just like how Au'ra were basically an exercise in selling Fantasias instead of using them to attract new people who might not be into the aesthetic of the original 5 races.

[JunseiKei]

Eh? If you actually read my post properly you would already see that I pointed out their skills have different mitigation types and percentage values.

You're arguing the semantics about difference and is a waste of time.

[Mature]

I think the jobs will come after not on release just like Ninja dis