Should healers now be allowed to play how they choose to play?

[Dsync]

No, many of your posts have been aimed at me and where have I been dishonest? If your talking about the parse look it up yourself, your not the first person to try that approach to discredit what I say but you cant discredit the truth nice try. look up 62 or something percentile dont know exact figures but if your going to call people lazy get your facts right first. At least Im 50 or so player base of parsed reports for dps heals on that fight not that it matters but as proof in this case that Im not lying to anyone

I've explained in previous posts, but you do selective reading and ignore actual valid arguments. You try to discredit people by using words aimed at groups of people. Saying it's bigotry, intolerant, coercing, forcing etc...BEFORE anyone snaps back at you. You pinch and then complain when someone hits back, pretending you've done nothing wrong.

Also, you aren't that special. If you hadn't noticed, I've reacted negatively to a couple of other people in a few posts. I hope that attitude you lot bring leaves the game, like you hope mine does.

There is no point to your thread as it's all about taking potshots by you, then complaining when people snap back.

[bounddreamer]

If a dps gets himself killed because I wasn't able to heal him in time due to swapping into cleric, guess who's fault that is?

If he took avoidable damage, it was the dps' fault, actually.

Perfect example is the Zurvan opener. Phase one, my co-healer and I put a shield and regen on the tank and we go full cleric stance until we drop.

The BLM stands in the aoe puddle and takes a hit. He can take the hit from ONE puddle. That's an acceptable trade off so that he doesn't have to move and can keep casting his 14k crit fire IVs. We save a tetra or essential dignity for that. If he finds himself standing in two or more puddles, he's going to get nuked and it's his own fault and he knows it.


Another example from Zurvan: if you don't get behind biting Halberd in time and you take a big hit, that was avoidable damage. If soar happens right after and you stand in the fire with a vulnerability debuff, that was all avoidable and if you die it is, in fact, your fault.

Did Weeping City a few weeks ago. We had a dps who stood in every possible mechanic there was to stand in during Ozma; spread bleed around the party, stood in orbs during square phase when they had the lowest health, then complained the healers didn't save them and returned after dying. Whose fault was it? Healers did their best to keep that person alive.

[FoxyAreku]

If you don't want to play your job properly that's your choice. Just don't expect people to be happy with it.

If you are in a group setting you should do your best to complete the objective that the group is setting out to do, that's just basic respect for other people. If you want to 'only heal' then maybe go to a single player game that has AI to fight stuff for you.

[ToasterMan]

Fault would depend on what gets the DPS killed... if he stood in a cleave or an AoE or some other avoidable damage then it's the DPS' fault. If he died because he wasn't topped off before the healer entered cleric's stance and raid wide damage caused the wipe then it would be the healers.

Outside of very scripted tankbusters, though, there really isn't anything that can drop a tank from 100% to 0% in 7.5 seconds unless the tank isn't properly using their toolkit or is really undergeared.

If the DPS was actually at fault or not is irrelevant. DPS usually blame the healer even if it's their own fault. If you want proof of that go check out the DF stories mega thread. Same scenario has happened to me a few times. My entire point is that I can see why healers can be reluctant to go into cleric. I don't encourage it but I can see why.

[IttyBitty]

If the DPS was actually at fault or not is irrelevant. DPS usually blame the healer even if it's their own fault. If you want proof of that go check out the DF stories mega thread. Same scenario has happened to me a few times. My entire point is that I can see why healers can be reluctant to go into cleric. I don't encourage it but I can see why.

Knowing where the fault lies means you can be confident in your decision making, and thus whether them bitching is something you can disregard. Always be prepared to own your own mistakes; don't own those that others make.

[craized]

to dement: the difference is as different as one role to another and fundamental in nature no matter how you may try to portray it.

[Feyona]

I've explained in previous posts, but you do selective reading and ignore actual valid arguments. You try to discredit people by using words aimed at groups of people. Saying it's bigotry, intolerant, coercing, forcing etc...BEFORE anyone snaps back at you. You pinch and then complain when someone hits back, pretending you've done nothing wron

There is no point to your thread as it's all about taking potshots by you, then complaining when people snap back.

We all have valid arguments me incuded everyone's point of view is valid here , but some have looked at both sides including me when Ive talked of compromise, and wanting things to be optional, but many posts here are dps or GTFO, So thats where we are. I even dps when I can because thats what other people want and when I say I cant your solutio n is leave the game or be excluded, that is the attitude that sucks and it IS bigotry Its giving people a tight little window of choice cos some of you want to be hot shots, and thats sometimes more what its about. You are the ones that dont want to accommodate anyone elses choice of play and healer dps is not essential and all Ive seen you do on this thread is take potshots at people. Ithink my comments were agreeing or diagreeing but I dont think they were potshots I dont think Im in the same league as you there

[Ghishlain]

Traiting existing spells would have been less effort and achieved the same goal, and since developers are human, the laziest option is usually what you'd go with (I kid ).

The new DPS skills were partially added to add new, flashy animations, but mainly to fill in niches that were missing in the classes' kits while performing their roles in duties. WHM's kit for example had almost all of the HP restoration tools you could ever ask for. They were mostly just missing a reliable emergency heal, which they got with Tetra. Asylum feels like they just wanted WHM to have a bubble too. I don't really think we needed any more AoE regen, and would have preferred it to mitigate damage, but hey I'm not going to turn my nose up at free healing. Assize was a spicy new piece of amazing hotness that fulfilled the same niche as SCH's new Indomitability skill (that is, instant burst AoE heal) that could be flip-flopped to be an AoE Nuke, depending on your stance at the time of cast.

What WHM was REALLY missing (beyond mitigation skills, but that's a different discussion...) was a native AoE DPS option that wasn't Holy (expensive, not always mana efficient to cast), and a way to apply a DoT without having to manually cast Aero 2/Aero on everything. Enter Aero 3. Aero 3 being an AoE is pretty meaningless in most of the solo content you have to do in the game. Heck, Aero 3's duration is longer than most enemies will live than if you just used one of your Stone spells.

The damage component on Assize falls into a similar trap, too - you are rarely ever fighting large groups of enemies when soloing as a healer. Assize gets a pass though because 1) it's free damage (or healing) either way; and 2) it's an absolutely awesome skill that they'd have to pry out of my cold, dead potato hands.

Then we have Broil/Stone 3, which are just direct upgrades to their respective single target nuke. Really the only DPS skill that would have been required outside of duties.

I like this discussion xD You could make the argument that spells like Aero III / Gravity / Stone III / Broil / Malefic II were there for the solo-style MSQ quests as mobs in there generally do last longer than the duration of most world mobs and are more akin to weaker dungeon monsters but that's more of an opinion and a fact. Overall I don't think we can say clearly what the dev's intent is given the evidence for either side of coin.

I do appreciate the thoughtful response though. It feels kinda rare at times. lol.

You keep seeing things relative to expectations. But expectations are subjective. Showing up one hour "late" for work might be well within your expectations, therefore, by this reasoning, you would not be late or delay anything. At the same time, your employer might have the expectation that you're on time and thus, by this reasoning, you'd be late and delay the working process. This creates a logical contradiction, since you are now both at the same time, late and not late, delayed and not delayed. Thus, this reasoning fails, as it creates logical contradictions. Expectations are irrelevant, null and void. And since your entire argument hinges on them, so is it.

There is no logical contradiction in my argument. In the case you listed above, the employer is in every right to write-up / punish the tardy employee. The employer's are the ones rendering payment for the salary and expecting a service returned for this payment. If the employee is late, that expectation is broken and they may be punished for their mistake.

In the case of FFXIV, I would say that the developer's are the employers and they set the guidelines for expectations within the duty. They have set the baseline of their expectation of roles and in this case they have made it abundantly clear they do not expect healer's to contribute to the DPS to their content.

Using your example and logic, the employee who is late would equate to the healer who let their party die. Whereas the healer who DPS would equate to the employee who arrived an hour early to work to get some extra time in and left at the same time.

Getting a healer to DPS, for all intents and purposes, is a community driven initiative. It's something every healer looking to become better should do. However, it's not what the developers want.

The developers have stated on several occasions that they understand healer's do enjoy DPSing in content and have made neither comment about their opposition or agreement to this issue. To me they are happy with allowing the healers to choose what they would like to do. Who are we, as high tier healers, get to decide what is "acceptable" and "unacceptable" from other players when they are basically fulfilling their primary function as a healer within a dungeon?

[Dsync]

We all have valid arguments me incuded everyone's point of view is valid here , but some have looked at both sides including me when Ive talked of compromise, and wanting things to be optional, but many posts here are dps or GTFO, So thats where we are. I even dps when I can because thats what other people want and when I say I cant your solutio n is leave the game or be excluded, that is the attitude that sucks and it IS bigotry Its giving people a tight little window of choice cos some of you want to be hot shots, and thats sometimes more what its about. You are the ones that dont want to accommodate anyone elses choice of play and healer dps is not essential

Misuse/Overuse of words devalues the impact of them. If you're going to call people bigots because they won't allow you to force themselves upon you, then it devalues that word when people are faced with bigotry that actually matters. Not something where you've been excluded from a group in a game because they don't like your attitude towards the content.

The part that always gets ignored in later posts to make it seem that we're "forcing" players:

Everyone here has said you can play how you want, but this continues to get ignored. They just don't have to play with you if they feel your playstyle harasses them. The other side is "you must play with me or you're a bigot". We have to "accept" people being lazy in dungeons because that's what we signed up to? No we don't. No we didn't. You do not have to change your playstyle, you just might have to find another group who'll take you.


You're right, I do not want to accommodate people who want to be carried (Lots of people don't.), so I'll leave. They can carry on being bog average on someone elses time. If that makes us bigots? Oh well, keep calling them that so then that word means nothing any more.

[Taika]

We all have valid arguments me incuded everyone's point of view is valid here , but some have looked at both sides including me when Ive talked of compromise, and wanting things to be optional, but many posts here are dps or GTFO, So thats where we are. I even dps when I can because thats what other people want and when I say I cant your solutio n is leave the game or be excluded, that is the attitude that sucks and it IS bigotry

What you don't get is, healers don't have any more valid playstyle options than any other job in the game. If a DRG (or literally any other job than a healer) would start a similar discussion about feeling too stressed about having to use their full rotation and all buffs, especially in the difficult content like Savage, and wishing to choose to use only half of their abilities instead because of that, absolutely no one would support that. But for some weird reason some people think we should accept that for healers - and healers only.

Savage content can be stressful and it requires a lot from everyone, we all understand that. It's also not for everyone exactly because of that.