Mentor Players Kicking newer players from Duty Ques for low DPS

[Alleo]

Its interesting to see what a mentor should do in the opinion of some people. We are here to help out new players, those that are starting the game and need help. We are not here to carry all new bonus people to the end of the instance. If someone is lvl 60 I dont see them as new. I will give an explanation about the boss mechanics but I will not go there and look if the players does something wrong with their rotation. I also carried players through dungeons that had no dps checks with them only using one attack as a monk...(I cried and facepalmed a lot inside of me). But not everyone will be so patient. And it was already said by the GM that a difference in play style is a legitimate reason to kick someone.

Sohr Khai does have some soft enrages at the bosses. If the other DD was also only okayish in their dps than this might mean that they wont even defeat the final boss. Well and if one of the others see that the OP does not even wear gear that are good for their job, well its kinda their own fault too. The dungeons are not limited, using maybe one or two weeks to gear up before going into it again would not mean that they will lose the chance to finish it.

@Altena: I am mostly a person that tries to give people a chance too. But the endboss of the vault is a healer check. If the others in your party managed to avoid a lot of attacks and you still wiped because the healer did not heal fast enough than this shows that they are not ready yet. Giving them three chances to finish him is already quite patient these days..sadly there are often people that want to vote kick someone after only one wipe. But if he/she is not good enough to heal through it than its sadly the best to kick them. There are the other people in the party that wants to finish the dungeon. Keeping someone in the group even though that person is the reason for the wipe and it will not get better is kinda a waste of time for all the others. I mean if this is a dps check and one person in the group is holding everyone back because they want to play ice mage and thus they wont have enough dps to finish the boss it would be kinda bad for the rest if you let that person still stick with you because in that situation you will not finish the dungeon and thus you wasted all the time which could have been easily saved by kicking the person. (And really the person will also not get better because they will be carried through the content..if they are kicked often enough maybe they will start to finally learn how to at least play their job)

I've done Sohr Khai with low dps before. I just supplemented DPS as a healer and we made it through just fine. It's definitely doable. No real reason to kick someone, especially in dungeons, unless they've caused a wipe more than once. Being impatient or dps being slow isn't really a legitimate reason imo, especially if you queued through DF. Work with what you've got or queue with friends.

If the rest of the party is good enough to cover the slack of someone else than they might be able to finish the dungeon. But in the end that person still got carried through content thanks to the rest working harder. And about your sentence with going with friends. Well the same can be said in reverse too. If you dont want to put in some work, are barely past the ilvl or are just not good with the game, you can just queue with your friends. And in content that has a harsh dps check and cant be cleared thanks to some hitting only auto attack..well low dps is a reason to kick.

[Crysten]

I've done Sohr Khai with low dps before. I just supplemented DPS as a healer and we made it through just fine. It's definitely doable. No real reason to kick someone, especially in dungeons, unless they've caused a wipe more than once. Being impatient or dps being slow isn't really a legitimate reason imo, especially if you queued through DF. Work with what you've got or queue with friends.

Healers who let the party die? Bad.
Tanks that can't hold hate? Bad.
DPS that do low DPS? What's wrong with that?Stop being an elitist!

Can someone honestly give me a legitimate reason why the above mentality is acceptable and in any way fair to those DPS who actually can do their jobs well?

[Masekase_Hurricane]

Healers who let the party die? Bad.
Tanks that can't hold hate? Bad.
DPS that do low DPS? What's wrong with that?Stop being an elitist!

Can someone honestly give me a legitimate reason why the above mentality is acceptable and in any way fair to those DPS who actually can do their jobs well?

See that's the problem, as a DPS you should try to push yourself more. At the end of the day there is many more that can replace you fast. Had a real bad WAR tank the other day. They sat on 5 stacks in defiance (must of needed the parry :P) never used any cool downs died on first big pull. Then we got to the first boss and he changed to deliverance and sat on 5 stacks.

I was running the dungeon with 2 friends the tank was a random. The healer was in my ear on Discord saying please kick them as she had never healed and was struggling a little with all the damage they were taking. Me and the other dps was just laughing whilst replying nah you got to learn to heal the crappy tanks too.

We eventually kicked just before the second boss as a friend came on who could tank. We were on the 4th wipe at this point. Once new tank joined we had no problems.

I lol'd at this.. I hope you got 3 commendations for that response alone.

I got two :P

Also people only start checking dps or gear when the run is going to hell. So OP is defo not giving all the facts.

[JunseiKei]

Healers who let the party die? Bad.
Tanks that can't hold hate? Bad.
DPS that do low DPS? What's wrong with that?Stop being an elitist!

Can someone honestly give me a legitimate reason why the above mentality is acceptable and in any way fair to those DPS who actually can do their jobs well?

Not "legitimate," because there really is no reason to allow such coddling, but if the "low DPS" becomes "just enough DPS," then it doesn't matter. People tend to only care when wipes start happening, for some reason.

[Vidu]

Healers who let the party die? Bad.
Tanks that can't hold hate? Bad.
DPS that do low DPS? What's wrong with that?Stop being an elitist!

Can someone honestly give me a legitimate reason why the above mentality is acceptable and in any way fair to those DPS who actually can do their jobs well?

It isnt - the problem with that is though: the first two are obvious.Bad DPS isnt - unless you're using a parser and since thats not allowed (specially not to tell someone "Hey, you suck!") its difficult to detect it. I remember some posts in this very thread being like "But how do you know they werent dealing enough damage?" and "If they were clearing, they were obviously doing fine!"
Pinpointing bad DPS is harder than pinpointing than healer/tanks - there are always at least two of them so one can carry the other one (and if the healer and tank are trying to throw in some dps too...).
Its also not to obvious to themself - if a tank is losing hate, they can see that. If a healer is looking at a corpse, its obvious they failed.
But DPS? Whats 10, 20, 30 seconds more on a pull?

No one likes being told "Hey, you need to learn how to play this class!" no matter how nice that might be worded - but after an obvious fail/mistake its harder to just ignore that. A DPS? Could have always been the other persons fault or whatever... the game doesnt show low DPS, so whats your ground to prove they were doing badly...

So yeah, while that double standard is sh*t and shouldnt exists, it has to do with bad feedback on that part

Also people only start checking dps or gear when the run is going to hell. So OP is defo not giving all the facts.

Nah, I do that most of the time when I'm tanking - to see how much I can pull. Granted, I'm normally with a super-awesome BLM friend, so the second DPS doesnt matter to much. But I will look at the healers gear to get an idea how much I can pull.

Also: Where can I order such a table? ;D I'd like a morbol one to go with the little chair we're having!

[Masekase_Hurricane]

Not "legitimate," because there really is no reason to allow such coddling, but if the "low DPS" becomes "just enough DPS," then it doesn't matter. People tend to only care when wipes start happening, for some reason.

Basically:
Tank dies > Healer's fault
Healer dies > Tank's and healer's fault
Dps pulls aggro and dies > Healer's and Tank's fault
DPS gets hit by avoidable AOE's > Healers fault
Mobs not dying fast enough > Healer should be dealing damage and tank should be in dps stance.

Healers and tanks should always strive to do more as otherwise they are just lazy and should be replaced.

[Aramina]

Basically:
Tank dies > Healer's fault
Healer dies > Tank's and healer's fault
Dps pulls aggro and dies > Healer's and Tank's fault
DPS gets hit by avoidable AOE's > Healers fault
Mobs not dying fast enough > Healer should be dealing damage and tank should be in dps stance.

Healers and tanks should always strive to do more as otherwise they are just lazy and should be replaced.

I like my one from WoW more:

Tank dies, healer's fault.
Healer dies, tank's fault.
DPS dies, he probably did something stupid and deserved it.

[SundayTrash]

After reading through the entire threads I came to conclusion that its the baddies that defending the op and calling out mentor, and saying there is no way for op to gear up if they are kick from story, while theres been multiple post advancing different methods of gearing up fast.

[Ninster]

I skimmed through this thread and, since there hasn't been any update from the OP, I have doubts this will make any kind of change in the direction this is going. Still, my comment to this:

1. Regarding mentors: Given this is a one-sided story, there's only so much to go off here. I wouldn't say the kick wasn't "without warning". Low dps was mentioned. If I was in your position, I would probably reflect on this commentary and check myself before attempting again. To say this happened twice in a row would definitely be a sign something might be up with either me or the other dps. That being said, the mentors would have done better to either point out the OP specifically for gearing advice prior to the vote kick or the OP's skill usage/rotation, if possible.

2. Regarding OP's item level and gear pieces: First, the dungeon does not just spit out party members if something is going wrong. Having "adequate" item level for the dungeon is fine, however it is, as with all group content, up to the other 3 people of the party to form their standards and take action if the fourth isn't up to those standards. I'm not saying the standards are okay or not; it's just important to recognize that even if your gear allows you to participate, you actually need to impress the others you're partying with.

So, to the OP, you DO need to think of dungeons in terms of meeting your party's judgment, as bad as that may sound. With the pieces you had, you have room for improvement: as point out before, you can replace the ilvl 150 pieces with gear obtained with Centurio Seals from killing hunt targets. The adequacy of your overall item level or skill means little to random people that examine you and sense something off about your accessories, as bad as that may sound. The Centuro seal pieces are very cheap and certainly more than adequate for the dungeon. Taking some time to obtain Invigorate and Blood for Blood from lancer would also be helpful, especially for bard. I'm not entirely sure about the level of "casual" you consider yourself, but picking up all 3 hunt pages for the day, and making a roundtrip through the Heavensward areas gives you 115 seals, if I remember right, if you pick off every single target from the pages. Add 100 if you happen to stumble across or shout for help in locating the weekly elite hunt. Your other option, if you just HAVE to get Sohr Kai done with what you have now, is to party up with people that understand the gear you have (or could help you improve) to run it.

3. Regarding the forum response/OP's attitude: I've known the community enough to have a certain level of cynicism towards the game and its playerbase, and the OP needs to recognize that despite all the less-than-favorable responses, that there IS advice that can picked out from the bickering. Of course, the OP's attitude is also troubling, but is it truly necessary to drop down to that level in return? Hopefully, I've provided enough "meat" in my response without the "salt" to get through to the OP, but if not, please try to refrain from the canned, tired labels and consider if you're truly providing feedback to the OP (or the related discussion of mentors and dungeon item level requirements) or just making pointless commentary about the game and the playerbase in general.

[ManuelBravo]

While this may sound a bit harsh there are a lot of good mentors that are misunderstood. Yes there are some that really don't help but most I think get the bad rep for being honest and blunt about what is going on. Some people may not agree, lets face it some of this new generation is the Cup Cake generation. If your not sure what that is here is a simple over view. Some players are spoiled and want everything handed to them. I've had a few runs were trough tooth and nail players refuse to communicate and go afk on their own, they complain of over pulls. Note this is not as in groups but as in one group that links. I am a very patient person and even in raids were people rage quit I ask other members of my FC, LS's, to help for new people. Seriously players need to start putting some effort. While society wants to give everyone a trophy for participating, at least I'm glad games stay honest and fair. Party gets a wipe? guess what that means you lost. Completed duty? congratulations you won. People need to stop blaming Mentors for their short comings. If your one of those ASK FOR ADVICE. It's ok Mentors are willing to help just please for the love of the twelve put some effort into it.