Mentor Players Kicking newer players from Duty Ques for low DPS

[Istaru]

A couple of points

1) If you're going to wear the crown, live up to the crown. If not, then don't wear it.
2) Going into DF with any expectation is pretty dumb and if you want to control what you get, go in preformed
3) Bitching about someone's low DPS in an MSQ dungeon is pretty dumb, too

1) What exactly is the expectation then?

• Is it to answer questions and give advice?

• Is it to carry lazy, entitled sprouts that feel like you personally owe them a clear and it's your responsibility to make that happen?

• Is it to be careful of their super special snowflake status and do things for them while not doing anything that may upset their feelings?

I think the first one would be an appropriate expectation. The others? Not so much.

2) I do expect that someone who queues for a dungeon meets the minimum ilvl requirements while wearing appropriate gear for their job. At 60 and being further into the story, I expect them to have the cross class skills they are supposed to have.

3) I don't think it's dumb at all. I gave up trying to help people with rotations and such in dungeons a long time ago. I still do outside of dungeons however. When their low DPS, along with others makes it impossible to clear content, something should be said to them. Like Nidhogg NM pre-nerf.


Let's change the story a small amount. It's no longer a DPS, it's now a DRK, or an AST. Also, their accessories are all casting accessories. And they don't have the cross class skills they need too. They don't have provoke, or stoneskin, or protect, or swiftcast. Change your feelings any? It should. They will have a hard time clearing a dungeon when the total gear level is almost equal to the dungeon minimum, if they can clear it at all.

To the people who claim that you should take what you get from DF and like it...

I agree and disagree with that statement. Yes, there should be some give and take between gear and skill levels. The actions of the OP go way beyond that in my opinion.

Do I kick people for low DPS? I do not. If we can't clear something when too many DPS are bad, like Nidhogg NM (also MSQ btw), I'll vote abandon or leave. I do not owe anyone a clear, I only owe you to do my part in clearing the content. Carrying someone is not part of that.

[Raven_Darkstar]

I really wanted to come in on the OPs side of this, but I just can't. Yes, mentors kicking in the way described (sounded like they were just pissed they couldn't speedrun and kicked the player they considered to be the one preventing them from doing that) was a crappy thing to do. But.

Level 60 with ilvl 150 white tank gear mixed with 250 crafted, on a BRD. And hiding behind the new player thing? Seriously? Just allow me to point out a couple things. One, being new is no excuse. Whatsoever. By the time you hit 60, CC skills being needed and appropriate gear for content being important shouldn't be a difficult concept.

And two, yeah, you pay a sub same as everyone else, but don't you have the least little bit of self respect to not want to be the one holding the group back? It's team play, and having a basic appropriate level of gear and your CC skills falls under basic politeness to me.

It hasn't been that long since I was a new player myself, on the same job even. But you know what? I would never, Ever have queued for a dungeon with so much as 1 piece below the required ilvl for it. Never. In fact, I had all my CC skills well before I even reached level 50. And once I hit 60, my first step in gearing was not buying from the mb and running straight into endgame content. It was hunts and the Doman gear (the hunt gear at that time). Only when I had a full set of that (upgraded to 210) did I start running the higher dungeons. Got myself a set of eso gear. Then went for the lore gear. And so on, rinse repeat. The way gearing up is supposed to go. Not holding onto old subpar gear and slipping some high ilvl crafted pieces in to get past the ilvl req and hoping no one notices.

Well, sadly for you someone noticed. Twice even. The lesson here is, if you can't be bothered to get necessary skills or gear, don't be surprised when you get kicked from groups. If you continue on this way, I can promise it's gonna happen a lot more often.

[LunaFaye]

Expecting someone in a level 60 dungeon to wear gear thats appropriate for that content (ilvl150 is NOT - even if the average ilvl might come close to whats needed) and

Honestly, people like the OP are the reason we're having ilvls in place at all - so people have to gear up and ensure that dungeons can be completed - and that in an acceptable time.)

If the player is able to enter the dungeon via duty finder in the ilvl 150 gear (based on your example), that means he/she is wearing the proper gear, otherwise that person would be unable to enter the dungeon.

While we do have ilvl's in place, some dungeons do not have ilvl's, and it's not up to the player base to decide if someone meets the ilvl requirements, if there aren't any requirements to begin with. However, I do love your interpretation of simple phrasings. Let me point out what I mean, you are saying that specific ilvls are in place to prevent under geared players from joining specific duties and that's correct, but I didn't see the phrasing or terms that state, that these kind of dungeons need to be completed in an acceptable time.

Now I am asking myself, what is acceptable, if we are going by the game itself, every dungeon has a timer and as long as you successfully finish the dungeon in that time, it's marked as completed/finished. If you go over that time frame you're kicked out of the dungeon by default and the duty will be marked as incomplete.

If we are going by your definition of acceptable that's something I talked about earlier, your own mindset, and that's something you should be looking at. Just because you think, for whatever reason, that as an example the dungeon needs to be completed under 10 minutes, doesn't mean that the system agree's with you. That's your own play style but not something that's actual in place.

[MeridaQ]

there is something I can do to control the situation and make this problem go away - leave the duty myself.

Yes if you have a problem with them, leave and take your 30 minute lockout. That is what happens when queing for DF you run into some players that are not taking the game as serious. If this drives you mad then form a party with friends or FC mates so you don't have to deal with randos. Some people take advice and improve, some don't, whether they do or not is not something you should worry about. As stated with the OP they are doing research beforehand even on dungeons. I have only researched extreme primals and savages. If playing with people who are not so good is so frustrating then go outside for a walk and come back when you are relaxed and are ready to have fun.

[Vidu]

If the player is able to enter the dungeon via duty finder in the ilvl 150 gear (based on your example), that means he/she is wearing the proper gear, otherwise that person would be unable to enter the dungeon.

You're making it VERY easy for yourself and everyone else to excuse a playstyle thats simply "bad", by only looking at the ilvl.Sadly thats the only gate thats in place for such duties and calculating it is quite a problem - as explained earlier in this thread accessories count as much as any piece, while they can actually be totally useless for said class, making it basically as if that slot was empty. Tank-jewls do nothing for a bard in a normal dungeon; even secondary stats might be worthless (parry, speed). Looking at that: while the system might have let them pass, they cheated the system and didnt gera up properly. If they get kicked for that because other people do not accept that, thats a legit difference in playstyle - 3 people prefer to play the game with a fourth person who actually put in the tiny bit of effort to get gear for their job. The crafting/gathering gear is now locked to those classes because people were running duties in it, to spiritbond the gear.

So yeah, we're getting more and more gates just to prevent people from being lazy and selfish about their gear - and you REALLY want to defend the stance that someone doesnt has to gear what gear they're using aslong as they're hitting the ilvl? You're sure about that? Because sticking to close to the "law" of the game might mean we need a better law - or in other words: Even more and better gates and more specific requirements or locked items.
Maybe thats actually a good idea, to keep people out of dungeons if they cant even bother to slap some proper gear on - because No, tank-accessories and ilvl150-gear arent appropiate for a dungeon that requires you to have an ilvl of 200. And I dont get how you can even defend that and say its okay, when wrong accessories basically mean empty slots and ilvl150-gear that someone didnt care about upgrading since 3.0

But: Do we really need SE to babysit us so much? To prevent us from using any gear that isnt meant for our job/class because some people dont give a s*it about pulling their weight and just about what they want for themself - and others actually believing that thats okay, but removing them from a duty isnt?

[Judge_Xero]

847 Dex vs 1000
579 Acc vs 540
603 crit vs 599
504 Det vs 535
592 skill vs 675
807 Vit vs 720

** I replaced your 250 pieces with void/highest 200 weapon and compared it to someone with full void/highest 200 weapon.
***Could be slightly worse or better as it was roughly done. I am sure some of you math kids could do it better :P

That's terrible. That's like being i155 in an i200 + Dungeon on top of missing other cross classed skills.

[Dement]

If the player is able to enter the dungeon via duty finder in the ilvl 150 gear (based on your example), that means he/she is wearing the proper gear, otherwise that person would be unable to enter the dungeon.

That's not even remotely true. If your tank or healer showed up in a mishmash of 150-250 gear and full DEX accessories but barely squeaked by the ilvl requirement because of those DEX accs... there's a very good chance that the dungeon wouldn't even be clearable but they'd certainly be able to enter.

Min ilvl is the bare minimum that SE thinks you should have to have a reasonable chance of clearing a dungeon. We're not talking about being over geared for speed runs, we're talking about the very bare minimum which the OP stated they exceeded by 2 ilvls so they were at the bare minimum already. Now add in that they were using VIT accessories as a BRD which is basically the same as NOT wearing any gear in those slots and they absolutely did not meet the bare minimum. Would you accept someone who showed up in a level 60 dungeon without a neckpiece, earrings and missing 1 ring? Because using accessories which don't have your stats on them is only very very slightly better.

To the OP: this was bound to happen eventually. At some point you need to slow down and work on getting yourself geared up to an acceptable gear level for even the MSQ... it ended up happening in Sohr Khai but there is at least 1 other trial and 2 other dungeons after it with an even higher ilvl requirement which you would have had to meet. Now is the time to get proper gear for the final push.

Also, as a curiosity, how did you know it was the mentor who initiated the vote kick? From the sound of your tale the mentor may have expressed displeasure in the slow DPS but it's just as likely that the other two party members initiated and executed the vote kick after you had admitted it was likely you.

[AnimaAnimus]

Maybe they should change rolls to Tank, Healer, Caster, Ranged, Melee and lock the jobs out that can not use them.

But to be fair this level of babysitting by the devs is kindda ridiculous. I can see in low level dungeons, I had tanks come in caster gear and when they were told they responded they didn't know any better. Which if you're new to gaming or mmo's I can see as a valid thing. And after a little stat explination they were all, "oh cool, thanks for the info. I will change gear". But by lvl 60...50 and 20 even you should know better.

I will be honest, I have had mnks come into a dungeon in caster gear, tanks in melee, brds in tank gear, and they all got the boot super fast. Especially when they have the attitude of "$&#% off" when you question them about it.

It's the same with ice mages and non dps healers. Booted. The dps thing I know is a touchy subject but we have had healers that don't even draw their weapon or have the nerve to dance through entire pulls, literally step/ball dance the whole battle and even had a healer /moonlift during trash pulls and the first half of bosses in dun sciath because they didn't need to heal. If you refuse to learn your job or just flat out refuse to play it properly... /goodbye

You may think its your right because you pay your sub so you play how you want, but I pay my sub too and there is nothing forcing me to play with you, that is why the kick option is there.

[XanderKing]

Players that choose to be mentors are taking on the extra responsibility of playing teacher. If you are queuing for mentor roulette, you should already have the mindset that there's a greater possibility that the run will run longer, mistakes will be made, etc. If it takes the entire run to explain rotations, gear, mechanics, and so forth, then so be it. That is the whole purpose for the mentors being there. As long as players are taking advice and actively show they are trying, then really there should be no issues. I don't understand when people who choose to be mentors act as though it is such a burden. It's what you signed up for.

Can we also remember this is a game, please. There's no reason to be so critical. If you're not having fun, you're doing something wrong.

[LunaFaye]

You're making it VERY easy for yourself and everyone else to excuse a playstyle thats simply "bad", by only looking at the ilvl.Sadly thats the only gate thats in place for such duties and calculating it is quite a problem

I don't know if you have noticed but let me point that out. I am not the one that pointed out the ilvl or based my argument on that. I commented on a post that was made by you, regarding the interpretations of simple in game measurements/requirements.

There's also no law in the game or any online game. Law has nothing to do with the absurd ideas some people might have or come up with. I called it a play style and mindset because that's what it is. What I am defending or not defending is irrelevant, the point is still the same and pointing out flaws in comments that are made prior.

You as many others are riding the "let me look you up on lodestone and comment on your "shitty" gear" train, that has absolutely nothing to do with it, or at least not directly, because someone can have an opinion based off an experience, that doesn't even slightly include the lodestone.

The OP stated he was wearing ilvl 202 gear that day, doesn't mention what class he was playing, the team composition, blue/green/pink gear etc. and yet if you're looking at the comments, people excusing the "kick" hungry mentality by a other player based on the OP's current gear, that we don't even certainly know he/she was wearing.

I like to argue, that given these kind of circumstances and out lash the topic received that the player might have changed his/her gear, so people would actually look at the problem. Even if that's not the case, the OP mentioned he/she was kicked due to low dps. While we now can argue that because he/she wasn't wearing the "proper" gear, that this was the result of the dps loss, let me tell you that it might or might not be the reason.

Regardless what the reasoning behind the kick might of been, I was and still pointing out, that a huge part of the community doesn't look at the whole picture. Instead, taking the smallest piece of the puzzle and basing their arguments and opinion on that, excusing any wrong doing or misinterpretations others might have in game. It's wrong, and it shouldn't continue like that, it's that simple.

Sadly to say, if you're looking at my posts made throughout this topic, I have argued and based my opinion on more than just gear. I didn't mentioned the gear since this wasn't one of my priorities. Your post on the other hand started with gear, went over to ilvl, skills all the way down to the "respect" level.... You see the difference?