Is DPS'ing as a Healer Vote Kickable?

[Fevelle]

So we are bad because we assume everyone else has the ability to push buttons as frequently as other people? Why do you think so lowly of healers?

Not bad, more like delusional. Most people have the ability to push buttons, but are they willing to?
I understand the frustration of a DF run with this kind of players (I had a Gubal Hard run last week with a BLM using the level 50 rotation and I was this close to abandoning the dungeon) but stressing over something so trivial will only affect you, and in a bad way.

[TouchandFeel]

I am of the mind that damage abilities for a healer should be seen as part of their healing kit and responsibility. The faster something dies, the less damage it can do and therefore less healing is needed because damage has been prevented, sort of like "pro-active health management" or "preventative healing". The when's and how's of balancing dealing damage versus healing damage is part of learning the role, job and content. In some instances it is best to just focus solely on healing, others it is better to focus more on dealing damage to kill things before they deal much damage and many times it is somewhere in-between.

The simple fact of the matter is that there is an expectation between players that when grouped together for a common goal, such as running an instance, that each individual will at least try to do what they can to help the group successfully achieve the group's goal in the most satisfactory manner possible. Trying to do what you can implicitly includes using the tools available to you to the best of your ability. Part of a healer's tools are damage abilities, not using them when you are able to means that you are self-limiting for some reason, although the two I have encountered most often is out of fear of screwing up or just plain laziness.

If a player is new or uncomfortable with the healer role, that is perfectly fine and other players should be supportive of them and help teach them and inspire them to improve. Willfully shirking basic group responsibility and shouldering of effort is a different story altogether.

It is of course a player's right to do the bare minimum or potentially even less if they wish to, just as it is the right of other players to not put up with that crap.

[Aramina]

Not bad, more like delusional. Most people have the ability to push buttons, but are they willing to?
I understand the frustration of a DF run with this kind of players (I had a Gubal Hard run last week with a BLM using the level 50 rotation and I was this close to abandoning the dungeon) but stressing over something so trivial will only affect you, and in a bad way.

I don't get stressed over it My comment was specifically to address the seeming attitude of "healers can not POSSIBLY be expected to be as active as other roles because.... reasons". As a healer main I find it offensive. We are just as capable as any other role.

[AutoWhit]

So we are bad because we assume everyone else has the ability to push buttons as frequently as other people? Why do you think so lowly of healers?

Are you being serious? You really believe I think lowly of healers? Maybe you should go back and read ALL of my posts so you have a reference.

It has nothing to do with healers. It has everything to do with not assuming everyone has the same ability, or personal skill level, to do everything that is "expected" of them outside their designated role.

[Clethoria]

Go in duo helps to kick anyone you want.

By that logic couldn't you just form a full goddamn party instead of being petty?

[Zojha]

Are you being serious? You really believe I think lowly of healers?

Well, what you said before implies that healers might not have the ability to actually still press buttons when they don't need to heal anymore and that you should not expect them to just because you personally are capable of it.

That's a pretty big insult, because there are DPS players who don't even have arms that are capable of more.

[AutoWhit]

Well, what you said before implies that healers might not have the ability to actually still press buttons when they don't need to heal anymore and that you should not expect them to just because you personally are capable of it.

That's a pretty big insult, because there are DPS players who don't even have arms that are capable of more.

Not what I implied at all, but hey, whatever. If that's what you guys want to believe so as to continue a pointless argument so be it.

So, going by the majority of people in this thread, I should just assume everyone plays at the same, or higher, skill level as myself at all times, and if they aren't I should call them baddies, and kick them from my group.

Great, got it. Awesome community you guys are building.

[Mirateski]

How are we still having this debate? If a healer's job was only to heal cleric wouldn't exist, just like in pvp where the healing requirements are so intense it doesn't even let you pretend you'll have time to dps.

I'm a tank main. My hp is a resource, just like everything else. Even the weakest instant heal (Lustrate) will give me back around 33% of my hp. If I'm on full hp the entire time, the healer isn't making use of a resource. A truly skilled healer will know when they need to heal and when they don't, but even if you're just learning, regen and done until I'm on like, half hp at most. Please god, use my hp. I have so much of the stuff.

If you go into some of the other forums, you'll see people complaining about paladin. If you're not familar with the tank jobs, pld is the only tank that doesn't have an aoe damage skill on the global cooldown. Some people say taking paladin into dungeons is SELFISH because of the amount of time they add on to a run. Are they right? Well... in a perfect world, yes. Paladin will always fail compared to the other tanks when all other things are equal.

tl;dr if you're not utilising all your resources, you have room to improve. For DDs this is cooldowns and rotations, for tanks this is hate/damage/cooldown management, and for healers, yes, it's learning how to use the hp of everyone else in the party.

And for the record, I've seen healers at minimum ilv for the dungeon dps just fine. Grubal hard last patch, a whm with incredibly low hp, tank was concerned they'd have to pull small. But actually, did the usual (read: big) pulls and the healer had plenty of time to dps. Isn't it a miracle?

(But if you're new to content, there's no expectation to dps from me. You need to be comfortable either with the content or your own ability to dps to the full extent, and that comes with time and practice. I've always suggested that dps thrown out of cleric while you learn is the best way to go, because that way there's less panic moment hammering cleric off when it comes to clutch time)

[Greedalox]

Are you being serious? You really believe I think lowly of healers? Maybe you should go back and read ALL of my posts so you have a reference.

It has nothing to do with healers. It has everything to do with not assuming everyone has the same ability, or personal skill level, to do everything that is "expected" of them outside their designated role.

I think they were trying to raise mind to the idea that conforming to the arbitrary concept of "designated role" is a silly concept in FF14. It's as you said though, people have every right to be as bad as they'd like, but people also have the right to not put up with it.

[Saito_S]

Not what I implied at all, but hey, whatever. If that's what you guys want to believe so as to continue a pointless argument so be it.

So, going by the majority of people in this thread, I should just assume everyone plays at the same, or higher, skill level as myself at all times, and if they aren't I should call them baddies, and kick them from my group.

Great, got it. Awesome community you guys are building.

It's worth pointing out that very few people in this thread (or period, in my experience) have expressed the following sentiment:
-"If a healer refuses to DPS at all, you have to call them out and should kick them."

Obviously you CAN call them out, and the sentiment "if someone wants to call them out, they have the right to do so" is being expressed. But no one is saying "you HAVE to."

The argument is more meta/general; i.e., "is this acceptable play?" And barring legit difficulty (someone is really trying, but just isn't very capable), disability, or some other such factor: no, it isn't.

In this thread - as is the case EVERY time this comes up - the "healers should DPS" crowd is focused on people who are not new, not inexperienced healers, not struggling to play the game at a basic level, etc. - it's focused on people who - often by their own admission - could DPS during downtime, but don't want to. Because... they just don't want to. Or are lazy, or are taking some kind of weird principled stand. "A healer should only heal!" And THOSE players, that will literally stand around doing nothing 87% of the time (to use Taika's figure from the experiment she ran in Xelphatol), simply because lol, are bad.

And yes, you are implying you hold healers to a different standard. Think about it. Imagine if a tank stood around for 60-80% of the time. They never failed to lose aggro, or if they did, it was only for brief moments - a monster would start to wander, and the tank would immediately reign them back in. BUT, whenever all currently engaged monsters had green and yellow jewels in the enemy list, the tank sheathes their weapon and waits for flashing orange.

Does this ever put the party in danger of DPS and healers being badly damaged by monsters the tank couldn't hold? No. Is it acceptable play? No.

If you were the DPS or healer in that run, would you just roll with it? Refuse to say anything to the tank? If someone else said, hey man, that's not okay, you'd defend the tank? "That's just how they want to play!" I doubt it. You'd be frustrated with them playing that way and you know it.

So why do healers get a free pass to stand around 80+% of the run? THAT'S what Zojha is getting at.