Mentor minimum requirement is too low / needs adjustment

[Zojha]

Honestly, before talking about mentor requirements and whatnot, it might be important to clear up what the point of mentors is.

Some people seem to think they're supposed to give advanced in-depth advice on play optimization and high performance duties, other seem to think that it's sufficient to answer the questions of newbies, who usually don't even know what a rotation is and aren't particularly interested in it either, because they're still trying to find the bank to dump some items.

It's kinda pointless to discuss how to best achieve the goal of the mentor program when there's no consensus on what the goal even is. So, uhm...if the discussion is meant to be productive, a definition of sort would be required.

[bswpayton]

The mentor system provides more experienced players a means to offer advice and guidance to newer players.

- What is a mentor?
Mentors are veteran players who chose to offer their time and experience to help guide new adventurers. To facilitate their assistance, mentors will gain access to a special chat channel as well as a means to easily register for duties and trials with new players.

- Mentor Requirements
To qualify to become a mentor, players must first have earned certain achievements. There are two sets of prerequisites, one for Disciples of War and Magic, and one for Disciples of the Hand and Land. After earning the required achievements for either set, speak with one of the Smiths to become a mentor.

Achievement Requirements for Disciples of War and Magic
・Complete at least one level 60 job quest as a tank, healer, and DPS.
・Complete 1,000 dungeons, raids, or trials.
・Receive 300 player commendations.

Achievement Requirements for Disciples of the Hand and Land
・Reach level 60 with at least one Disciple of the Hand and Land.
・Synthesize 100 collectables.
・Gather or catch 300 collectables.

- Novice Network
Upon becoming a mentor, you will automatically gain access to the Novice Network, a chat channel where new adventurers can seek the advice of veteran players.
* The "New Adventurer" status is applied to all players who have less than 40 hours of play time.

- Duty Roulette: Mentor
Mentors will also gain access to Duty Roulette: Mentor, which assigns players to duties that are struggling to fill party member slots.
* With the exception of parties actively seeking members for an ongoing duty, Duty Roulette: Mentor will not match together a full party of mentors.

Furthermore, players can earn an exclusive achievement reward after completing Duty Roulette: Mentor a set number of times.
* Achievement rewards will be added in a future update.
* After registering for Duty Roulette: Mentor, your online status will be automatically changed to "Mentor."

right off the lodestone http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/

[Shougun]

Honestly, before talking about mentor requirements and whatnot, it might be important to clear up what the point of mentors is.

Some people seem to think they're supposed to give advanced in-depth advice on play optimization and high performance duties, other seem to think that it's sufficient to answer the questions of newbies, who usually don't even know what a rotation is and aren't particularly interested in it either, because they're still trying to find the bank to dump some items.

It's kinda pointless to discuss how to best achieve the goal of the mentor program when there's no consensus on what the goal even is. So, uhm...if the discussion is meant to be productive, a definition of sort would be required.

Agreed, also seems like there is some misinformation. Like you can be a mentor in whatever you want whenever you want? Edit: seems like yes you can be lol.

Imo, mentor of a job group means if you get asked a question unless it's very obscure you can answer it. You're not going to tell a BLM to do the "wrong" rotation because you just don't actually know how to play BLM yourself. I see value in having many types of mentors though, like ones who love to help newbies find the best leveling content and don't actually queue in roulette.

For mentors who queue in roulette, that includes EX content, I think it's important to have a higher standard and that standard isn't quantity but specifically quality. Even if as people point out you overgear it, I don't think that is enough of an argument that it's okay to let someone be a teacher. They should still be exampling proper play, good rotation, position, responsive combat, you watch the mentor and learn - not watch the mentor fumble to keep up their monk stacks.

So to me I'm coming at it at two separate angles. The basic mentor helper I don't think needs any change to becoming one, perhaps make it even easier to be a person who flags themselves as a helper. But I've seen and agree to the post that mentors who are of a specific field and / are of combat, then they should be tested. I also want the tests for another reason though, that'd be the other angle. I see enhancing the quality of combat mentors as a way to also add better tutorials which will better help new players or players seeking to improve themselves with little stress (I think training people into EX will give us more players to play with, and also increase their quality if they're taught what to expect - perhaps require them to play better if the test is made as a gate for certain DF content). So I guess that adds confusion to my posts, because I want to hit two birds with one stone while riding the main thought in the thread (make mentors great again.. lol).

I also think this is a justified question/suggestion for the topic because the topic was obviously created due to displeasure in the capability of mentors (so its not like people are suggesting changes because hey lets fiddle with stuff, they want to come to some "change" in mentor ability). Now just have to find out what will produce the best results, and why. The best results being for those who find mentors helpful, not for the mentors themselves.

I want to see as many mentors as possible, that are good at whatever symbol they yield~ (I think to simplify the icons, a star next to the mentor symbol means you know the job you're currently on - well, no star just means you're experienced enough to be a helpful person, we don't need icon clutter for a system that should help new people out haha).

Add slight more below:

Regardless of what personal values you attach to the word, the game is very specific about the duties of a mentor, and that is literally ONLY tied to helping and mentoring sprouts, and not in any way tied to behaviour/ability once you take the symbol off, or play with other veterans. It says so in the description of the job, and again in the list you need to accept when you agree to become a mentor. If you ask the NPC, he explains it as well. Mentoring is specifically tied to Sprouts, not all players in general.

Personally, I totally agree and am very annoyed when I for example get a bad player in my Zurvan EX farm party who is wearing a mentor sign or something like that, because I also attach more value to the tag than the game itsself does, but that's just my personal thoughts on it and the standard I set for myself (which is why I specifically take off the crown when I go for content that I am new or inexperienced in) and not something that I think needs to be enforced.

As for symbols - as said at the beginning of this post, it's false information that everyone can wear any symbol. You can only wear the generic crown and the symbol for the requirements you actually completed, not any symbol regardless of what you can do or not
For example, while the crafting mentor crown shows up in my list of symbols, when I try to equip it, the game tells me I am unable to because I'm not a crafting mentor.


I agree with that, and assume the system will be adjusted. When they extended the free trial, they also extended the length of the sprout status to completing basic HW, so I assume it's gonna move up to completing basic SB once we hit 5.0.
But it's still gonna exclude endgame content, so I am still convinced that is not a proper requirement for becoming a mentor, as it is not needed in guiding sprouts who will lose the sprout status before they get into endgame :x

So, I went online to check again because of what bswpayton said, and it seems you can actually now equip symbols regardless of what you achieved.
I specifically remember that was not how it was from the beginning, because when I first become a mentor I was confused that all symbols showed up for me so I tried equipping the crafting mentor symbol and it wouldn't let me.
Now I can just equip any symbol though, so sorry for discrediting you guys x)

That absolutely needs to change back. It's completely unacceptable that we can do that and act like we have any idea about something we actually know nothing about.

So apparently I want to see the mentor system expanded haha. I find all your logic sound, but I think we start to differ because I personally envision the mentor system as a thing for all time and all content - where if you show up in an EX of whatever content as a mentor.. like omg hey you must be good! lol. So perhaps for end game content the tests I suggested (which as above and in previous post I think can hit two birds one stone) are where it happens. You don't have to have end game experience to be a mentor for new players, but your mentor status turns off until you earn your new "tier" of mentor status again when doing this other content (which again, quality not quantity - I'm not a fan of these time gated suggestions I see).

I disagree with people making mentor harder to obtain without having "good" results, as I want as many people who want to be helpful to easily be helpful. Like SE should let a 2 minute old leaf be a mentor if that person could actually be helpful to others (doubtful at 2 minutes but you get my feeling I think). Making someone play 100days before they can use systems that help others is a bit like "whyyyyyyyy to me" lol.

[Atoli]

@Shougun:
Well, with the coming introduction of jump potions, a "Hall of the Intermediate" has been in talks, basically the same as the Hall of the Novice, but it teaches you proper high level rotations for your class and the like.
I think a "higher tier" of mentors could be tied to that, just how the current mentor/sprout system came together with the Hall of the Novice. I'm not entirely sure how good of an idea it would be to further fragment the mentors though.
Since the first rush after the system got introduced, mentor activity has dwindled quite a bit and further separating that..idk.

The thing is, I see the activity in the network and the help in content everyday. The level of the players there is absolutely fine. And I've never heard a single Sprout complain about it either.
The only thing people actually have complaints about is the Mentor roulette (well, and mentors doing badly in unrelated-to-newbies content, but we've established that at least the current version of the system is specifically targeted at newbies only).
And personally, I think the main problem with the mentor roulette is the reward. People don't bother with explanations, good play, or even just not-behaving-like-an-a*****e, because they need to quickly get their 1000 mentor roulette duties done for the mount.

Imo, mentor of a job group means if you get asked a question unless it's very obscure you can answer it. You're not going to tell a BLM to do the "wrong" rotation because you just don't actually know how to play BLM yourself.

Hm..the thing is though, the system is by default not built to be that specific. I'd go ahead and argue that only the tiniest bit (if any at all) of the current PvE mentors...or ANY players, for that matter...actually play literally every single class that exists in the game on raid level. Like for example, my own active classes are BLM, WHM, AST, BRD and NIN. To a degree, DRK. While I am close to having all classes at 60, I could never actually give out advice to a DRG about their rotation, or a SCH about how to correctly balance their healing and dpsing, or a WAR how all those weird combos work. And that's fine, because the system is not meant to be that specific, because it's meant to be just advice based on roles, not specific jobs (like telling the new tank to pick up Provoke and explaining how it works, but not intricate explanations about PLD cooldown management at lvl 60, for example).

[Shougun]

@Shougun:
Well, with the coming introduction of jump potions, a "Hall of the Intermediate" has been in talks, basically the same as the Hall of the Novice, but it teaches you proper high level rotations for your class and the like.
I think a "higher tier" of mentors could be tied to that, just how the current mentor/sprout system came together with the Hall of the Novice. I'm not entirely sure how good of an idea it would be to further fragment the mentors though.
Since the first rush after the system got introduced, mentor activity has dwindled quite a bit and further separating that..idk.

The thing is, I see the activity in the network and the help in content everyday. The level of the players there is absolutely fine. And I've never heard a single Sprout complain about it either.
The only thing people actually have complaints about is the Mentor roulette (well, and mentors doing badly in unrelated-to-newbies content, but we've established that at least the current version of the system is specifically targeted at newbies only).
And personally, I think the main problem with the mentor roulette is the reward. People don't bother with explanations, good play, or even just not-behaving-like-an-a*****e, because they need to quickly get their 1000 mentor roulette duties done for the mount.

I get your concern but if I wasn't explicit enough, I'm fairly sure I can alleviate at least my intentions to you . I want people to be mentor easily and readily, but only for that which they're good at lol. So for general helping, just flipping on the "I'm a nice person who made it to the end of the story you're doing" is great. I DONT want mentor to be specifically epeen or "I can do all the rotations perfectly" I only want people to be good at what they need to teach :P. I'm not looking to evacuate all mentors because they haven't ran 500 fates, 10,000 dungeons, 50 days of game time, or whatever - perhaps people who are suggesting those time gated changes can instead suggest a new mentor field: psychiatrist mentor lol "I've grinded too much, talk to me if you're feeling burnt out" haha (joke, mostly).

Personally would make it easier to become just a general mentor but be very careful with roulette and mentor specific titles (like I'll have a crafter to 60 soon, but if you asked me question about crafter beyond what is a good website I'd probably give you all the wrong info lol). Haven't made the collectible stuff on crafter but I can say that stuff is easy peezy on gatherer so having collected those doesn't make me that helpful. Not sure (since I don't know those roles very well) what sort of test you could make though. Perhaps there isnt one? I don't know :P.

Hm..the thing is though, the system is by default not built to be that specific. I'd go ahead and argue that only the tiniest bit (if any at all) of the current PvE mentors...or ANY players, for that matter...actually play literally every single class that exists in the game on raid level. Like for example, my own active classes are BLM, WHM, AST, BRD and NIN. To a degree, DRK. While I am close to having all classes at 60, I could never actually give out advice to a DRG about their rotation, or a SCH about how to correctly balance their healing and dpsing, or a WAR how all those weird combos work. And that's fine, because the system is not meant to be that specific, because it's meant to be just advice based on roles, not specific jobs (like telling the new tank to pick up Provoke and explaining how it works, but not intricate explanations about PLD cooldown management at lvl 60, for example).

Exactly why I was aiming for a simple star no star + mentor status thing, don't want it too complex for others to understand or banish anyone who can't complete savage mode with one arm tied behind their back while wearing an eye patch.. but I do want to suggest changes to the mentor system that makes it more specific to your ability. You know how to play WHM? You join a queue as WHM and you have mentor icon with a star (or whatever simple consistent change people want) saying hey "I'm a helper, and I know WHM" vs like you're on Paladin but also have mentor status on - you'd have no star but you'd still be mentor. I'm not sure if that star should prevent you from using the mentor roulette (if you don't have one).. since we want as many mentors as possible.. but I keep referencing monk and black mage in my posts because I've seen some literal awful monk and mentor black mages where they messed up their stacks 24/7. I checked their lodestone and they were leveling those jobs, which is fine - but they'd be terrible teachers of the job they were playing lol.

And as you're mentioning the tutorials you might see why I think it could add double encouragement to SE to make some really good tutorials (a system SE can reference to make sure you know your stuff, a system that can help new players improve, and also help stabilize/evaluate current players). Also on a personal level I want to see content that gives me an environment to test my limits just by myself - no super boss WHM to save me, just some NPC maybe and a load of complex mechanics. I would love to see a bullet hell ultimate challenge (not required to be mentor ofc, just want to have some really challenging ME content where I can improve me without killing other people's stuff and also not relying on others as well). It does give me an ulterior motive to suggesting the mentor changes though :P.

Also, and I think being required to run Mentor Roulettes to maintain your icon should be a thing.

Might kill some of the general helpers or crafting mentors though?