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[Nirokun]

Actually it do was far more toxic than any chat. For the few feast I've done before 3.5 as BLM, it was all the time "Why the f*ck are you playing BLM, go SMN", and it's only about the job, there was far more

Actually it's not, it's about the same. The difference is that a lot of sub-par gameplay/behavior is tolerated in PVE because it's faceroll content outside of endgame raiding with static groups. NIN just auto-attacking and throwing daggers while running around in expert? You suck it up and just carry them, wishing they would be forever stuck with players of their caliber and never be able to complete anything.

In PVP, players just don't roll over and die if you actually try, and part of trying in PVP is communicating with your team or knowing how to play your class well enough (in PVP, specifically) to not draw negative attention. If you're bad at PVP, you get called on it because the rest of your group actually needs you to perform to win. That doesn't mean the person is insulting you without constructive criticism, they're bringing up your shortcomings so you can fix them. That's not being toxic, it's a competition and they're trying to help you so, as a team, you can win. Have I been called out for having less than 10k HP in Feast by my healer? Yes, absolutely. It's fine at lower levels of play, but having the staying power of a wet paper bag won't fly when you're focused repeatedly. So, I accepted the criticism from the top 10 player, and was able to put myself in the top 100. Can I specifically say that his advise made me win? No, but it undoubtedly made it easier for anyone healing me.

You learn these things from people who are kind enough to bark something at you before/during/after a match. There isnt a lot of time to prepare a flowery, gentle reply to someone's shortcomings, it's short and to the point. A lot of people are deeply upset by this criticism, then cry "TOXIC" and bash the game mode.

I'd go as far to say that pro-chat ban players are the most toxic to the game--so vocal about their hurt feelings that the game is altered to being less fun and less competitive/thrilling for people who enjoy any particular content. Safe spaces are created for like-minded people, not forced upon everyone. That's the problem with the chat ban.

[jameseoakes]

I'd go as far to say that pro-chat ban players are the most toxic to the game--so vocal about their hurt feelings that the game is altered to being less fun and less competitive/thrilling for people who enjoy any particular content. Safe spaces are created for like-minded people, not forced upon everyone. That's the problem with the chat ban.

with that attitude your surprised they removed the chat?

[Nirokun]

with that attitude your surprised they removed the chat?

I don't understand your post, elaboration appreciated.

[jameseoakes]

I don't understand your post, elaboration appreciated.

Your complaining the player complaining about harassment are worse than the people doing the harassment...which seems to be a fairly common theme in these threads

[dragonseth07]

Your complaining the player complaining about harassment are worse than the people doing the harassment...which seems to be a fairly common theme in these threads

Because "OMG please pick up medals" or "Focus the bloody healer!" aren't harassment. People just don't like being told how bad they are. It's the same reason people oppose parsers around here. They want to stay ignorant of their own shortcomings.

[Fluffernuff]

snip

Normally I would agree, but in the example above "Why the f*ck are you playing BLM, go SMN." Is neither helpful, or even criticism. They did not explain WHY they should go SMN. They didn't explain WHY BLM was a poorer choice. They just berated a guy because they saw a Job icon. You also bring up how communication is needed in Feast. Have you perchance tried Feast for your GARO mounts? Any of them solo?

You sit there and look at the BRD, SMN, AND BLM all with 300+ medals over-extending and not a single person targetting them? You mark them and their health never drops? even WITH chat, you can only spam "Attack X" so many times. How much tolerance do YOU have for being ignored? My tolerance is rather low after 5 minutes.

Not to say i disagree wholly with your points, it's just that helpfulness from the PvP side has always been out of matches much more then in matches. there's just not enough time to type out a new strategy once there's 1 minute left, especially "nicely". With the ban in Feast, it's now EXCLUSIVELY out of matches...

[loreleidiangelo]

Normally I would agree, but in the example above "Why the f*ck are you playing BLM, go SMN." Is neither helpful, or even criticism. They did not explain WHY they should go SMN. They didn't explain WHY BLM was a poorer choice. They just berated a guy because they saw a Job icon.

Why wouldn't the player in question research beforehand before dropping face-first into a ranked mode? That was the first thing I looked up when the Garo event dropped, was what healers did best in Feast (it's WHM, by the way). Even then, if some group bothered to say, "why the F are you playing AST, go WHM" I'd simply respond with, "I know WHM is the superior choice assuming equal levels of skill, but I'm much more comfortable on my Astrologian. Give me a chance before assuming I'm a lost cause". It's not really that hard.

That said, I get that it's not hard to be a raging doodyhole over stuff like that too, but the issue about the chat ban at the base level is that the onus is no longer on new or bad players to process the information they're being given, even if it's harsh...the onus is now on veteran players to either silently carry or silently lose. And the onus SHOULD be on neither group of players, it should be on Square Enix to provide adequate moderation support so that the only people being targeted by the system as being toxic are people who are ACTUALLY toxic, not the PVP community at large.

[enthauptet]

Why wouldn't the player in question research beforehand before dropping face-first into a ranked mode?

I know this is a dumb thread. But this point is also dumb, there is no 4x4 unrated mode so arguing someone should research and do all this and that before even playing it first is not really fair to the player. Not only that but the game really doesn't even mention much about pvp at all. The quest to unlock it is like "hey player we have pvp" and that's about it.

[TiaHariberux3]

I know this is a dumb thread. But this point is also dumb, there is no 4x4 unrated mode so arguing someone should research and do all this and that before even playing it first is not really fair to the player. Not only that but the game really doesn't even mention much about pvp at all. The quest to unlock it is like "hey player we have pvp" and that's about it.

Well you should always research in PvE you research opener/rotation/mechanics (endgame) too unless u are world first raider. 4vs4 is like the "pvp endgame" so of course you should research beforehand PvPers even did a whole site to help new people... and while 8vs8 + fl doesnt feel like 4vs4 its still a good practice.

Even if chat was toxic its still not right to mute the chat for everyone.

[Nirokun]

Normally I would agree, but in the example above "Why the f*ck are you playing BLM, go SMN." Is neither helpful, or even criticism. They did not explain WHY they should go SMN. They didn't explain WHY BLM was a poorer choice. They just berated a guy because they saw a Job icon. You also bring up how communication is needed in Feast. Have you perchance tried Feast for your GARO mounts? Any of them solo?

You sit there and look at the BRD, SMN, AND BLM all with 300+ medals over-extending and not a single person targetting them? You mark them and their health never drops? even WITH chat, you can only spam "Attack X" so many times. How much tolerance do YOU have for being ignored? My tolerance is rather low after 5 minutes.

Not to say i disagree wholly with your points, it's just that helpfulness from the PvP side has always been out of matches much more then in matches. there's just not enough time to type out a new strategy once there's 1 minute left, especially "nicely". With the ban in Feast, it's now EXCLUSIVELY out of matches...

I never said there was no toxicity (I really hate this word, but, ugh), only that toxicity was not somehow more prevalent in PVP compared to PVE.

The reply from this player:

Actually it do was far more toxic than any chat. For the few feast I've done before 3.5 as BLM, it was all the time "Why the f*ck are you playing BLM, go SMN", and it's only about the job, there was far more

You can surmise that he doesn't know what he's doing. Patch 3.5 was released 1/16/17, his join date is set at December 2016. He was in Feast, not knowing what he was doing, and (I don't necessarily believe this) in multiple instances was told to go SMN over BLM. I can only offer the assumption that he was told this because SMN PVP burst is fairly straightforward and effective. Giving a new player the advice to go with a job that is easier for him to manage (because he was repeatedly critiqued to be bad at BLM, because good BLM stands out) is helpful. That being said, being THAT new, he probably didn't have SMN leveled, but not enough context given and it doesn't really change anything.

As far as going into depth as to why he should go SMN, remember, there isn't a lot of time to chit-chat in Feast. Having done a lot of Feast on SMN, I usually use the time at the start (before the chat-ban) to say what I'll do ("Repeat bane to pressure enemy healer, will coordinate with your burst if you mark", "enemy healer is bad and can be pushed down", "do you want/can i have both buffs?"). After that it's either chat macros to push a player, call an enemy burst sequence and notify healer, fall back, and to look at the chat log with sound effects for something important to winning. If it isn't a macro, I'm typing into chat after a death/respawn while I run back to the group.

I haven't done much Feast for Garo mounts (all ranked), 6 matches in I got a tank who was feeding the enemy team from the start, and reported him. He soured it for me, and I figure I'll just do that achievement when the new season comes.

As far as my tolerance for being ignored, it depends. If it's someone new/bad, you roll with it. If it's someone griefing (like the guy feeding), I will report. If it's someone who knows what they're doing, maybe they have a different plan and I try to adjust. Previously, I could use chat macros to communicate, I had added the "Charge", "Retreat", "Collecting Medals", and "Get Medals", but nothing else helps me the way I play Feast (I feel that SMN cannot carry a match, so I usually have to call the match to swing it in my favor, but I can't do that anymore).

Your complaining the player complaining about harassment are worse than the people doing the harassment...which seems to be a fairly common theme in these threads

Then perhaps it is deserved? There has also been repeat posts about what actually constitutes harassment, and what does not.

I know this is a dumb thread. But this point is also dumb, there is no 4x4 unrated mode so arguing someone should research and do all this and that before even playing it first is not really fair to the player. Not only that but the game really doesn't even mention much about pvp at all. The quest to unlock it is like "hey player we have pvp" and that's about it.

There is 8v8 unranked, and that is decidedly more casual. If the player is actually trying to rank up, loreleidiangelo's point still stands. You know that ranked and unranked, by definition, are more and less serious, respectively.