How would they fix PLD 4.0?

[Khalithar]

Snip

My point was to look at something like warrior and it's focus on stance dancing and how each stance has different abilities. Make warriors thing revolve around knowing when to be tanky and when to be more damage focused on damage. Again, make stances warriors thing.

Then with drk put its threat and survival gameplay in to the mp management and ditch grit entirely. Using dark side as often as possible and managing your mp, knowing when to use it for power slash for threat, a cool down like dark mind for extra mitigation, or soul eater for the hp on a clutch moment.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

[Reynhart]

Again, make stances warriors thing.

I won't suggest to make "stances" a WAR thing. However, I can fully agree that DPS-stance should be a WAR thing. The other tanks should have something else. DRK already has Dark Side and Dark Arts which makes it's gameplay unique enough between the three tanks.

For me, PLD should not have a DPS stance like Sword Oath. Lorewise, PLD is a protector, a Gladiator who has been trained in the arts of Conjury. Therefore, its other stance should reflect that. As I said earlier, being able to transfer some of its buff would fit well the "protector" part. As for healing, I just thought of one easy thing. Instead of Clemency healing back a portion to the PLD, it could simply apply a Galvanize effect. This way, you wouldn't "waste" MP by casting it on a target that your healer has already healed.

[Khalithar]

Snip

I actually finally got the hang of the stance dancing thing for warrior and I sort of feel like the tank vs dps stance gameplay could be expanded upon to make the gameplay even better. Definitely agree with you on drk and it comes back to my original point, I don't think every tank should have the toggle between (for lack of a better term that I can think of right now) tank and non-tank mode. In addition, I think by making the stance dance gameplay a warrior focused thing it could differentiate the tanks more and make them feel more unique while playing them.

I like your pld idea but I don't know if it necessarily needs that extra defense, I was thinking on something that enhances it's offense while in keeping with the protector theme of the class and I came up with a rough idea for a mechanic. Giving pld some sort of resource that it builds while fitting in with the whole earth aspect of the conjury thing you mentioned. So it would look something like this:

Earthen protector: Paladins can now block magic attacks, in addition, the paladin generates a resource when taking damage, taking damage while using Cover, and/or blocking attacks. Once it reaches maximum it makes the pld's next shield bash cost no TP, deal double (triple?) damage, and creates a shield that absorbs for the amount of damage dealt.

Granted, it's similar to a warrior's stance stacks, but the mechanics around generating it and what it does is very different and provides a different sort of payoff.

[Reynhart]

I like your pld idea but I don't know if it necessarily needs that extra defense

PLD surely don't need the extra defense. But since the meta tends to favor using tank stance as little as possible, it would give an interesting synergy that a PLD OT will allow for even less tank stance time for the MT. If the MT can stay out of tank stance more, he can maintain a highest DPS, to compensate for the native lower DPS of PLD.

Granted, it's similar to a warrior's stance stacks

WAR is not the only job that build a ressource by its rotation, so it's always an option. However, if it's tied to blocking or taking damage, it still cement PLD as a "MT job", which is part of its issue, whereas transfering buffs (Defensive and Offensive) or having a barrier-heal can be useful on MT and OT.

Another reason behind the Galvanize effect is the concern of the role-skills. We can assume that the cross-class skills will disappear entirely, so PLD might lose Stoneskin with this. By reworking Clemency, it would serve as a stoneskin replacement while making it much more useful.

And, on a last note, I'd also slightly change Divine Veil so that the barrier actually scale with the healing received to trigger it. Like 30% of the HP recovered. It would still be a burden to receive a spell to activate, but it would reward good communication between the PLD and the healers to save a powerful spell for that, opening new strategic use for Convalescence...as an OT.

[Shurrikhan]

snip

Just want to run a couple other ideas past you, then, that I think might have similar effects to what I think you might be going for...

1. What about just making more attacks interceptable/split-able, and then giving Paladin a passive that allows his intercepted damage to deduct from the total split damage, essentially double-dipping on the idea of Covering for others? Or, if that would be too powerful, at least add his magic and physical defense to the calculations for all others struck by the same split AoE?

Now, this would also mean that DRK and Warrior have more defensive weight to throw around from the OT position too, not to mention DRK pulling more out of Blood Price without having to swap per 40 seconds and Warrior finally having a competitor for triple Fel Cleave in CD usage, but that benefit would ultimately favor PLD versatility and therefore throughput.

[Ideally, for me, this would simply come in the form of progressive AoEs, wherein a certain amount of damage progresses outward and is reduced with each mitigation calculation done against it, from the first person hit (total damage done to next then reduced by the amount mitigated) to the next, to the next, as the AoE spreads or cleaves outward. In this way a party could, say, stack from highest to lowest eHP or Defense against a (somehow undodgeable) Colossus's cleave in order to have every member survive.

Within that system, Cover could simply be a Paladin passive that gives the Paladin a second, enlarged theoretical hitbox. If any singly-striking attack would hit an ally through that hitbox, it instead hits you. Any AoE that would go through that hitbox to strike an ally grants the full benefit of your physical and magic defense to them as well. And with that, Paladin becomes the superior interceptor tank.]

I'd also slightly change Divine Veil so that the barrier actually scale with the healing received to trigger it. Like 30% of the HP recovered. It would still be a burden to receive a spell to activate, but it would reward good communication between the PLD and the healers to save a powerful spell for that, opening new strategic use for Convalescence...as an OT.

That will probably be far weaker than is presently the case, given how far tank HP has come along. Keep in mind also, that a single, pitiful HoT tick could trigger it. Do you want to have to click off Aspected Helios and pop Convalescence just to blow DV effectively?

2. That brings me to a possible revision to Divine Veil that you might like, within the same vein of versatility as above, but this time for potential party support. I apologize if I already posted this in a reply to you elsewhere.

Inspire - For the next 12 seconds, all damage, (active) mitigation, and healing you do generates additional primary output stat, Defense and Magic Defense, and maximum HP and MP, respectively, split among all party members within 25 yalms based on range and the percentage change in total resultant stat created. (Bonus HP most affects allies with less HP. Casters receive Intelligence, Ranged and Ninjas receive Dexterity, tanks and melee receive Strength, and healers receive Mind.) Effectiveness increases with total number of party members.

Okay, so the complexity of that would probably make it undesirable to implement, but the idea should be sound. You can use it to enhance the party's ability to absorb raid damage in any of three ways, and can enhance burst. These effects automatically level themselves as to provide virtually no waste, while giving the Paladin additional control through positioning.

Edit: yep, already posted that just a few pages back. Sorry about that.

[Reynhart]

1. What about just making more attacks interceptable/split-able, and then giving Paladin a passive that allows his intercepted damage to deduct from the total split damage

I thought about a kind of interception by allowing Sheltron to block the next attack "in front of you", i.e. even if you're not the target.

[Ideally, for me, this would simply come in the form of progressive AoEs, wherein a certain amount of damage progresses outward and is reduced with each mitigation calculation done against it

You already have "progressive AoE" as a specific mechanic, so, it could be weird to apply that on all AoEs.

That will probably be far weaker than is presently the case, given how far tank HP has come along. Keep in mind also, that a single, pitiful HoT tick could trigger it.

Just make HoT not trigger it. Like some skills ignore auto-attacks.

If you dont like being forced to play certain jobs, quitting the group is easy.

Raiding is not only about the job, it's also about the people. Changing job to play with people I like is my problem. The fact that this setup is more efficient is the game's problem. Especially when you realize that WAR is much more effective as a MT than PLD and DRK are as an OT.

You people are treating PLD like so flawed that the job cant clear etc, when in fact PLD can do huge DPS too, it's just less than what DRK can potentially achieve, and even then DRK is harder to play generally.

This is a twofold problem. First, we're not treating PLD like it's miles below the other two tanks. It's just...below. And second, your highlight on "PLD is viable because it can do huge DPS" still point the fact that everything revolves around personal DPS. If they don't push tanks in different directions, they won't be able to balance them properly as the number of jobs grow, while still retaining a very unique feel to each job.

I have a friend who is really good at PLD, 2k dps in a9s as PLD but his DRK deals less DPS than his PLD. Does it mean that DRK is actually the best? You decide.

No, it probably means that he plays his DRK worse than his PLD. One friend is hardly relevant. What do the fflogs rankings say about PLD and DRK ?