To people who complain about "elites".

[Yeol]

Just came from solo tank solo heal Zurvan EX party.
And the sad thing is, we were hardly skipping anything with 6 damage dealers.
Three of the damage dealers were making below average dps.

How would you handle those three damage dealers?
If you tell them the truth, you come out as a player with very bad attitude


Now elites won't always compline (not every good player is a jerk). Example: random DF roulettes. They will notice your dps, your mistakes but won't bother saying anything because these instances do not require much.

However, when you join Extreme/Savage kill or training parties, that is another story.
Here is what to expect:
- Someone will always have parse (ACT) working.
- Not every group will agree to keep a below average skilled player in their party.


If you were called out or kicked, don't come here and complain or spread bad things about skilled players. They simply don't want to waste their time.

There are some instances that require a higher level of skill, if you met them, you are more than welcome to join. If not, then please hit SSS dummies and come back when you are ready.

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NOTE: I am by no means asking everyone to play on the same level. Just pointing out that there is a misunderstanding going on recently regarding "elites".

[Eloah]

Okay, first I just want to get this out of the way; I don't really do Savage or Ex Primals, have I tried them at my leisure, yes, but I don't practice for hours on end and get myself ready to farm them.

Now with that out of the way, here is my response to your inquiry. Regardless of your intention, this entire post seems to be in regards to using a parser.

My first response, before mentioning anything else is in regard to your expectation on using a parser. It should not, I repeat, SHOULD NOT, be expected that someone in the party will have one. Because, let's say I am not doing well as a DPS, and someone is parsing it, if I am kicked from the group, for "some reason", and I suspect a parser was involved, I can report the group and have them banned or something else. Regardless of their lacks use of a parser, they are a breach of the terms of service, and if you are caught, for whatever reason, there will be serious repercussions.

The second thing is, if you are using a parser to monitor the DPS output it should only be to guage the group as a whole, and should be for fun. There are already people on the forums complaining, "no one knows mechanics" "know the entire fight" on the first day of this recent patch, 3.5. Everyone likes it when they beat something for the first time, and no one likes to lose repeatedly, but remember, this is a game, its meant to be fun.

Now in regards to what to do about bad players, DPS or otherwise. To start, I would recommend venting to other players, not familiar with the group you are in. Do this while the instance is fresh but when not active in the party, either dead, wipe and restart, etc. This does two things, one it gets the aggression you are feeling out right away so you can focus more on the task at hand and not the other players "messing up". Next, providing people respond, it will also give you some insight into other players perspective on how to possibly handle the situation. They might state they heard that perticular section of a fight was really difficult, even for experienced players, or tell you to joke about it, mention your party composition, something. The point being, that if you guage an impartial persons reaction to your raw emotion at the time, it can help you understand the situation better.

The final thing I guess I would mention is how to actually respond to player stupidity, because let's be honest you don't need a parser to see stupid. Here is a good example. I did my Ex roulette and got Baelsar's Wall, no big, I've run it already and its a fairly easy dungeon. There were 2 new players, the DPS, and the Tank was "old" like me. Now the run is fine for the most part, a hiccup in the beginning, but the run is smooth... until the final boss. Now, that boss can be a bit tricky, but the fight is relatively simple, but they kept letting me die to the binding mechanic, over and over again. No joke we must of wiped like 10 times, all because they kept ignoring that mechanic or forgot about it. Now, was I mad, hell yeah, its not even like there are so many mechanics to remember back to back, its one freaking mechanic. But, I vented to my LS, and when I talked in the party I just kindly reminded them to remember the mechanic, evidently they need more than 2 reminders, and I was encouraging them that we, as a group, can win. The big issue is that, for most "Western" players, we focus more on the individual instead of the entire group. If there are any problems like a lack of DPS or failing a mechanic, if it's addressed as a group issue, most players will want to try and better themselves so as to not hinder the group, and may even ask how they can get better. This is "Most" players, there will still be the occassional dick, and they will make themselves known, and when they do that's when you remove them from the group, since at that point its not about playstyle its about a hostile attitude.

Okay, admittedly this got wordsy, and might've run on longer than needed, but I just wanted to give you my stance. Basically, parsers should never enter the equation, period, but you aren't wrong to want to encourage a group to do better, it just needs to be addressed as a group issue not a personal "individual" issue. Try wording things as suggestions for the group and things should improve greatly.

[Khemorex]

the problem will always be that people start to rage way to quickly , that demotivates people.

if u want better results , u need to try to motivate people without being demorilizing with a rage response ^^

[Yeol]

I was not parsing actually but rather the party leader (a friend of mine) was.
Zurvan EX is very rewarding to high dps. You can skip phases and make the fight much easier.

People are skipping them with 5 damage dealers while we are unable to do so with 6.
It does not require someone using parse to know that dps is very low. Parse in this situation can point out players with low dps.

The leader did not kick nor pointed fingers at anyone. He said the obvious "Dps is low." and we continued doing all mechanics as if we had 4 dps not 6. Should have gone with the normal composition but leader was nice to keep everyone. Healer said he will consider it a test for his skills.

The healer agreed to go solo on this one expecting to skip the hard mechanics and tank busters. But sadly that did not happen. Everyone knew, using parse or not that dps was very low.

My point was not acctually the parse but rather the players skill. Parse was only a tool to help.

Joining EX/Savage training/kill party without knowing your job is really bad for those who acctually want serious runs only to be held back by such players. Who might be clueless that is it their fault. If you try to direct them or tell them that their dps is low you'll get bashed


We did have to reset the time twice acctually. So we did not point out the low dps players. Only becuase if we did we might get reported. In the end we wasted our time and did not reach our goal.

[Ralts]

When most dps players expect a carry, bringing no food buffs and not even practicing their rotation, then yeah, no matter how many you bring in to the fight, the outcome will be bad :/

[Celef]

the problem will always be that people start to rage way to quickly , that demotivates people.

if u want better results , u need to try to motivate people without being demorilizing with a rage response ^^

That !
I can't remember how many times I saw "elites" (you know the one who thinks he is but in fact he's not really good either) starting to insult people and rage quitting instead of, idk, giving advices ?
I know, some players don't want to know / don't care, but others will be more than willing to learn if you took (general you) took a little bit of your precious time to help. Don't forget that, at some point, you (general again) will have to deal with those "bad" players when the raiding scene will change

For example I'm a bad dps, clearly i've never been able to have a decent dps in my life (no matter the game) but sometimes I do play as one because my guildies want to heal and someone has to volunteer....how many times have I been insulted in PU because of my auwfull dps even by other SMN and when I say "I know i'm bad, any advices to become better ?" no respond at all.....

You can blame people for being bad, but remeber that if they are, it might be because they asked for help and no one thought it would be relevant to give them the good advices....
(I know their are guides and so, but sometimes you might need actual experience from your fellow adventurers)

[Pence]

I think it'd be more than fair for SE to implement a parser for only current Extreme and Savage content - Anything that you'd find in Raid Finder. Nothing below it requires a parser. I see no issue with kicking someone for 'I'm sorry, but we need someone with more control over their job' if the numbers can justify it.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

My first response, before mentioning anything else is in regard to your expectation on using a parser. It should not, I repeat, SHOULD NOT, be expected that someone in the party will have one. Because, let's say I am not doing well as a DPS, and someone is parsing it, if I am kicked from the group, for "some reason", and I suspect a parser was involved, I can report the group and have them banned or something else. Regardless of their lacks use of a parser, they are a breach of the terms of service, and if you are caught, for whatever reason, there will be serious repercussions.

Actually, no, you couldn't. GMs have flat out said you can kick someone for any reason. They can simply use the nebulous term "playstyle" as their justification and nothing will come of it. You can only report someone if they flat out mention your DPS numbers.

I think it'd be more than fair for SE to implement a parser for only current Extreme and Savage content - Anything that you'd find in Raid Finder. Nothing below it requires a parser. I see no issue with kicking someone for 'I'm sorry, but we need someone with more control over their job' if the numbers can justify it.

They won't for that very reason. They don't want people be able to kick or ridicule others for low DPS. Look no further than the Feast. A toxic mess, sure. But their solution was to silence everyone.

[Yeol]

the problem will always be that people start to rage way to quickly , that demotivates people.

if u want better results , u need to try to motivate people without being demorilizing with a rage response ^^

Anything I said made you think we didn't?

This is the what i meant when i said people will always think badly of you just becuase you play well.

[loreleidiangelo]

What advice can you give to someone who doesn't even know the fundamentals of their class? I don't play a NIN; I'd have no idea how to tell a NIN to improve their rotation, and frankly, that's not my responsibility. I obviously don't support raging or flaming underperformers, but at some point the hugbox has to stop and you have to be able to tell people that they're not ready for the content in question without fear of being effing reported. Why put DPS checks IN if we're not allowed to monitor whether players are capable of passing them or not?

As I've said numerous times on this subject, it's not a crime to be bad at a video game. But don't be that guy who uses the permanent P flight hack on World 8 of Super Mario Bros 3 just so you can beat the content and not feel bad about yourself. Work at it, improve, and if you can't do it just accept there's some stuff in life you're just not capable of doing and move on. Is that really so hard?