Anyone disappointed with the new Red Mage asthetics?

[Underdog2204]

At that point you're not asking for a Red Mage, but simply another caster. RDM is supposed to be a hybrid, and that entails weaker attack and healing magic to compensate for their being hardier than your average mage and better at melee combat than same. This means you're trading overall magic power for melee proficiency, which has been core to the job since the first FF.

Which will not work in FF14, so I dunno why you expected different tbh...

It has to be able to fufil one of the very specific role's otherwise the class is pointless. If it's a melee then why do we have yet another melee class and still only two magic users?

Making it a caster is the most logical route compared to just "coz". Being "hardy" means absolutley nothing just ask any DRG main. There is zero mistaking what the job is, it's not like SMN where you wouldn't be able to tell from looking at them.

[Duelle]

You do realize Red Mages can equip more than just swords in almost every single game they appear in, right?

I am, but their primary arm in pretty much every representation of the job has been the sword (not counting the staff seen in FFTA's artwork for the job, which is a misrepresentation since the job uses rapiers rather than staves).

Which will not work in FF14, so I dunno why you expected different tbh...

A true hybrid? You're right, that won't work in FFXIV, as has been explained and argued by several here aside from myself.

I'm actually well aware of the changes and concessions needed for RDM to work. You have to lean less towards overall mediocrity (see: RDM in FFIII, FFV, FFXI) and pick a role that thematically works for the job while keeping the things that are core to the job: sword, attack magic, curative magic.

It has to be able to fufil one of the very specific role's otherwise the class is pointless. If it's a melee then why do we have yet another melee class and still only two magic users?

The class parity argument is a poor one, at best. There's no rule that says we absolutely must have X number of casters and Y number of melee.

If you want ranged casters, I can give you some suggestions: Geomancer, Mystic, Necromancer, Blue Mage and Sage. Let's not act like there were no alternatives for a ranged caster to the point RDM had to be shoehorned into that category, because we still have plenty of jobs to draw from.

Making it a caster is the most logical route compared to just "coz". Being "hardy" means absolutley nothing just ask any DRG main. There is zero mistaking what the job is, it's not like SMN where you wouldn't be able to tell from looking at them.

Making it a caster is not the "most logical route", because it ignores the melee side of the job. As of right now, based on the keynotes and the video shown, swordplay seems secondary and an afterthought to RDM, like an element that was grudgingly added to try to avoid people calling out SE for making the job iconoclastic a second time; the fact they tried to focus on their "fast positioning" gimmick further supports this.

The logical route was to make the melee and magic sides of the job mesh in front-line combat. There's a reason I mentioned I expected something like melee weaponskills => spell combos, the Art of War mechanic, melee combos affecting spells somehow and so on. That gives you enough breathing room to not only give the job stylish melee abilities, but also seamlessly blend magic into their combat style. Best part being that you wouldn't need to make up a BS gimmick like "fast positioning" to pull that off AND would still be able to give them limited ranged options (since that is something that is par for the course with magic).

Now, you could say "well, that might still happen since the video didn't show us all the job's skills", at which point I would ask, "then why the hell didn't they focus on that?".

FFXIV's Red Mage, however, will be a Ranged DPS, excelling at DPS primarily, and incorporating melee attacks in the course of its rotation. So, that's what FFXIV gives us, and I am happy to accept that. Red Mages from other games simply don't work with the battle system we have.

I wouldn't expect a carbon copy of the console FF version of RDM, but I would use that as a foundation and adjust the job to work in an MMO. This is why I've pointed to how hybrids work in other recent MMOs and said "look at how these guys are doing it and learn from them" since beta. I don't think this would irk me as much if the fast positioning thing was not such a blatantly contrived gimmick. I can't even, in good conscience, call it a valid gameplay mechanic. It'd be like if I designed a job with gameplay that revolved around pressing the space bar.

[SilkaN]

I lost all interest in RDM when they revealed that it is going to be a full caster and not a melee / caster hybrid.

[Nicobo]

I lost all interest in RDM when they revealed that it is going to be a full caster and not a melee / caster hybrid.

Do I have to lost interest to BLM when it is going to full fire mage but not a ice/fire mage? ^^;

Just think for exmaple ppl will laugh at melee RDM if it is "real" hybrid...

[SilkaN]

Do I have to lost interest to BLM when it is going to full fire mage but not a ice/fire mage? ^^;

Just think for exmaple ppl will laugh at melee RDM if it is "real" hybrid...

Well, it doesn't really matter from an aesthetic standpoint, since you will be glued to one place and gun everything down as a BLM anyway.
In RDM's case it's different, I expected them to be a full hybrid, spending some time in melee range, then spending some time in caster range and so on. But no, they are a wannabe BLM (which actually fits the job lol) who dives into melee range for a few seconds, only to back out again.
Well, we at least expect RDM to play like this, given the limited information and footage we have.

[GMERC]

they are a wannabe BLM (which actually fits the job lol) who dives into melee range for a few seconds, only to back out again.

Sounds perfect to me. When RDM was teased I was worried they'd ruin it by making it a job that plays mostly melee (or even worse, all melee). This is much truer to how I feel the job should be, rather than someone who futzes about in melee range occasionally firing off point blank magic attacks between a mostly physical skillset.

[Nicobo]

Sounds perfect to me. When RDM was teased I was worried they'd ruin it by making it a job that plays mostly melee (or even worse, all melee). This is much truer to how I feel the job should be, rather than someone who futzes about in melee range occasionally firing off point blank magic attacks between a mostly physical skillset.

unless distance affects dmg otherwise you can be always in melee range....
it reminds me at the first place MNK shoulder tackle was a range attack that cannot be executed in melee range.
maybe rdm magic will work like this...

[Duelle]

But no, they are a wannabe BLM (which actually fits the job lol)

I could argue that this only "works" in console FFs because of the limitations of turn-based combat. There's not much room for gameplay that mixes elements of a hybrid because you're limited by how turns are structured (read: you aim to use turns efficiently and try to get the most bang for your buck per action, which in the case of RDM means using spells, especially if you take into account how their stats scale in the console FFs).

[LineageRazor]

Now, you could say "well, that might still happen since the video didn't show us all the job's skills", at which point I would ask, "then why the hell didn't they focus on that?".
I wouldn't expect a carbon copy of the console FF version of RDM, but I would use that as a foundation and adjust the job to work in an MMO. This is why I've pointed to how hybrids work in other recent MMOs and said "look at how these guys are doing it and learn from them" since beta. I don't think this would irk me as much if the fast positioning thing was not such a blatantly contrived gimmick. I can't even, in good conscience, call it a valid gameplay mechanic. It'd be like if I designed a job with gameplay that revolved around pressing the space bar.

I, too, think it was silly to make RDM a ranged caster. It should have been a front-line job with melee and auto-attacking mixed in with spellcasting. This, I think, would have best encapsulated RDM as a "hybrid fighter-mage" while still allowing it to fit comfortably into the Trinity as a DPS. Perhaps SE was worried about a caster having to constantly interrupt spells by moving to avoid front-line mechanics - but the answer to that issue is stupidly simple: Make RDM spells instant cast, essentially weaponskills that just happen to be magical.

I do think that SE is highly concerned about the categories that the jobs fall into, due to existing mechanics in the game. Dancer, for instance - I've heard many players express interest in Dancer as a front-line Healing job. It's something I'd like to see, myself. However, there are mechanics in the game that target healers, and assume that they have the freedom to stand at range. How would Alex 4's Nisi work with two front-line DNC in the party, for example? DNC as Healer may well still be possible, but I find it highly unlikely that it will be front-line.

SE may have felt that they ran into a similar conundrum with RDM. A caster at close range? Impossible! We'll make them ranged just like other casters, and toss in a few melee lunges so the sword doesn't look silly. Frankly, I feel that solution lacks imagination. If a caster at close range is out of the question, just categorize RDM as a melee, not a caster, but a melee with spell-like abilities.

[GMERC]

SE may have felt that they ran into a similar conundrum with RDM. A caster at close range? Impossible! We'll make them ranged just like other casters, and toss in a few melee lunges so the sword doesn't look silly. Frankly, I feel that solution lacks imagination. If a caster at close range is out of the question, just categorize RDM as a melee, not a caster, but a melee with spell-like abilities.

The idea that RDM needs to be a melee just because they could equip swords and had an attack command lacks imagination.

It's important that you recognize that there's a difference between an idea you don't like and a bad idea. Also, Dancer is not a healer.