3.5/4.0 Speculation & Discussion (Spoilers)

[Kallera]

While the Garleans do not do what they do purely for evil, Gaius himself literally said that he was trying to conquer Eorzea because he could. Yes, they do do this for kicks.



... while how that attitude came about can be explained, that doesn't justify it or their actions. The Garleans are not strictly speaking evil, but that doesn't mean their actions are justified to anyone but themselves - and everyone is justified from their own perspective, so that doesn't really fly.

I think you are missing some earlier points that show Where Gaius and his directs are coming from and the conflict between Eorzea's and Garlemeld's approach. Namely, that Gaius has such a low opinion about the governance and people of Eorzea that he might as well put the rest of it under Garlean rule.

Note their interactions and responses in the face of the Primal question. The Garleans, as far as we know, do not play nice with primal summoning beast tribes, And the existing primals power being recorded was seen as pathetic according to Nero, and Gaius. Eorzea(pre 2.0)we have an already divided country, reduced to temporary fixes and independant negotiation against beast tribes under threat of the local primal flipping their lid and wrecking everything. It took Garlemeld knocking on their door to finally bring up the Grand Company idea, and any outside observer could see they were still well on their way to chaos, and that regime change can only help stabilize the situation before Eorzea was awash in Tidal Waves, Hellfire, and whatever motherly 2hr Nophica might have.

Im not going to state any real life examples here. But assuming one existed, im willing to bet seeing it would not inspire confidence from the "Garleans" that "Eorzean" example is little more than a tinderbox running on hopes and a prayer. Until there is some common ground found between these two, there is going to be a lot of lives lost, and we are on the side who pins stability on one lucky girl/boy and their motley crew...little doubt that such an approach requires convincing from those that aren't so fortunate to have a Warrior of Light, at least one that isn't slaughtering their brave men and women.

[Cilia]

Here comes a new challenger! Time to turn up the heat!

snip

Gaius' opinion of Eorzean governance is irrelevant. Taking away Eorzean freedom and independence is. Just because you don't agree with a nation's system of governance doesn't mean you have the right to take away their freedom and dictate how they should live. Yes, there are flaws in the Eorzean system - which is based on Hellenic Greece's city-state system, which was known for internal strife - but there are flaws in every system. Proclaiming your own system of governance superior is exceedingly arrogant, and oppressing them is a surefire way to earn their ire.

Eorzeans take the same approach to handling beast tribes and Primals the Garleans do - the difference is that Eorzeans are willing to negotiate with the non-tempered factions of those beast tribes, and put down the primal when it is summoned, instead of declaring genocide the end-all be-all solution along with imprisoning those Primals. While going genocide on the beast tribes would solve the issue of that individual Primal, and imprisoning those Primals will mitigate the threat of it, as shown by history those are short-term solutions at best. Furthermore, as we now know anyone and everyone is capable of summoning a Primal with enough aether and a fervent wish, so to completely remove the threat of Primals would require cleansing Hydaelyn of all life. I'm sure everyone doesn't need to be told how that isn't an acceptable solution.

The Garleans don't need to have confidence Eorzean methods. As long as Eorzea is handling its own problems and not causing danger or damage to Garlean people or territory, they have no right to military intervention, much less conquest. While I do agree that Eorzean governments should not rely on our power to solve their issues time and again (which I applaud Nero for calling them out on), it should not be forgot that they are capable and willing to deal with Primals without us - it just so happens that the Echo lets us save countless lives from being lost, making us a much more efficient solution than using human wave tactics. It should also not be forgot that a decent chunk of Garlean infantry is composed of forced conscripts from conquered territories, so half the time it's not Garlemald's "brave men and women" we're slaughtering but people who had no choice in the matter. As I've explored before that is a questionable thing to do, but the consequences of doing nothing instead are far too dire.

As the aggressors in every conflict we've seen involving them, Garlemald should be well aware and accepting of casualties resulting from their actions. Complaining about soldier deaths resulting from wartime actions, and civilian deaths resulting from insurgency attacks, is refusing to accept responsibility for the consequences of your actions. When you go on the warpath and then take away others' liberties, expect those sorts of things. (As someone who can play a very ruthless political game in Magic: The Gathering's Commander format, I am very well aware of how oppression makes others angry at you and exactly what kind of reprisals it inspires. I factor those reprisals into my plans and prepare for them, as well as accept losses as necessary instead of whining about how unfair it is that I'm being an oppressive douche and people are going after my throat for it.)

The Garleans don't need confidence in Eorzean methods, but unless Eorzean actions are being directly harmful to Garlemald or its citizens there is no justification for their repeated attempts to take away Eorzean liberty. Taking away others' liberties is a surefire way to get them pissed off at you, and you should expect and accept reprisals (and if you're really wise, anticipate and prepare for such things). The same holds true for each and every other region and nation Garlemald has conquered and plans to conquer.

[Anonymoose]

Here comes a new challenger! Time to turn up the heat!

I think you may have overcooked it a bit, lol.

The spirit I agree with; you answered a few counter points how I would have, for starters; but the defense seems to go a bit too far in that specifics seem to over-reach and contradict themselves.

Just because you don't agree with a nation's system of governance doesn't mean you have the right to take away their freedom and dictate how they should live.

The Garleans don't need confidence in Eorzean methods, but unless Eorzean actions are being directly harmful to Garlemald or its citizens there is no justification for their repeated attempts to take away Eorzean liberty.

The Garleans are convinced that the world is going to end. Garlemald is part of the world. They believe that invasion of other nations and eradication of things that put the world at risk is not only self-defense, but the responsibility of those strong enough to do so. It is a righteous calling. They're wrong, and they're going about it wrong to boot, but it's what they believe.

Taken in its entirety, Gaius speech has nothing to do with "disagreeing with governance". It's a warped chain of logic:

1. False gods kill the planet.
2. Eorzea worships false gods.
3. Eorzea's worship of false gods is due to its weak leadership.
4. By killing you, it will show that I am strong.
5. Without you in the way, I can overthrow Eorzean leadership.
6. With strong me in charge of Eorzea, Eorzea will have no use for false gods.
7. Without false gods Eorzea will be no threat to the planet.
8. I must conquer Eorzea to save the planet.

Furthermore, as we now know anyone and everyone is capable of summoning a Primal with enough aether and a fervent wish, so to completely remove the threat of Primals would require cleansing Hydaelyn of all life. I'm sure everyone doesn't need to be told how that isn't an acceptable solution.

Garlemald is already in the wrong; we don't need to misrepresent them by exaggerating their approach. Capability is not intent. The Garleans target those with intent, and then everyone associated with them gets taken along for the ride. That's a bit closer to "a few bad apples spoil the bunch" than "wipe out eveyone even remotely capable of doing the things we don't like."

The Garleans don't need to have confidence Eorzean methods. As long as Eorzea is handling its own problems and not causing danger or damage to Garlean people or territory, they have no right to military intervention

Who judges how well Eorzea is handling its problems? I mean, the Warrior of Light is doing a pretty great job and Garlemald would botch it, objectively. But do they have no reason to disagree with that sentiment? Look at the 4.0 previews.

LOTS AND LOTS OF NEW PRIMALS

They last time they didn't get the job done fast enough, the Seventh Umbral Calamity happened. Imagine if Louisoix hadn't cleaned that up. They think they can do better. They're wrong, but they do.

Primal summonings are indirectly harmful to Garlemald unless it's on Garlean turf.

I disagree. Primals are how the Ascians give power to the desperate and escalate conflicts. Conflicts lead to Calamities. Calamities have the potential to impact the entire world (and destroy entire other realms).

It's like saying the New World had no stake in the War of the Magi because it was on another continent. How many cities were destroyed all over the world by rising sea levels because of what has happening on someone else's turf?

That's not to say Garlemald isn't still wrong - they think they de-escalate conflict, but they just put a lid on it and let it pressurize. The inspire desperation and hate. Putting Ala Mhigo in a box didn't work any better than putting Bahamut in a box.

But being confident in your ideology doesn't make their ideology vanish. Both ideologies are worthless in comparison to the Warrior of Light actually de-escalating conflicts and attacking the roots of Ascian influence.