As a healer, is it my job to DPS? A new perspective.

[xJimmehx]

..

I dont know the words or I would sing along.

[Cynfael]

My point is, it is a matter of rights when you get down to it. Everyone wants and expects like the world owes them something. In all honesty I think this is being blown out of proportion. Its a game. It is being taken way to seriously. If people care so much about healer dps they shouldnt have disputed offical, in game, parsers. It might also be better to just end this thread and ask Yoshida for an official response on the matter because this community will never agree on anything. I apologize if i seemed rude in my above post. I did so intentionally to prove a point.

Yoshida is a smart man and says virtually nothing on this topic; the dev team just kind of shrugs whenever it comes up.

My speculation is that they don't want to promote the idea of any playstyle that might make the game seem hardcore. This isn't to say that dealing damage while healing is some kind of hardcore activity, but we have to remember that the bar for "you must be X tall to ride" this proverbial theme park is set around 4 feet. This is a business, and perception is king.

Getting people to play support in party-oriented games can be challenging to begin with because of the perception of responsibility. If it's not that, it's that PvE content with a pure healing model is usually boring as hell, and very few players are dedicated enough to their role to stick it out until end game. If the dev team stays quiet on issues of playstyle, they can let players sort out their own meta and not risk directly alienating anyone.

In my perception, the ideal situation is that new healers learn their role as they level up and (hopefully) read the objectives and start to piece together a playstyle that meshes well with all parties. It's the "healing-only" healers who get stuck in a rut, whether it's because they somehow missed the memo while leveling that DPS helps or because they've decided to boycott this interpretation of the Healer Role. In the former case I would like to help those players learn that they can play bigger and better, that they can be real powerhouses that help their parties; in the latter case I would like those players to understand that their choice, while pleasing their sensibilities, is selfish when measured against the fact that other players have to carry the weight of that choice.

[Cleftobismal]

I dont know the words or I would sing along.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bikl9-OPPmA


And now you can sing aloooong~



LEEEEEEEEET IT BUUUUUUUUUURN! LEEET IT BUUURN!

[Chocolys]

I think the real issue about all the similar topic to this one starts with different motivations for why they're playing the game and why they're participating in a Duties. And this affects all classes.

For example about Duties, one argument you often hear about Big Pulls vs Small pulls is that it's faster and more efficient (assuming the group can handle them).
And it is. However that argument is only valid if your primary interest is the speed of duty.
But not every player value speed as much as it value other aspects. Some player might simply enjoy doing Smaller easier pulls. In this case the latter might value relaxed and/or easier gameplay over speed.

Both are neither right nor wrong. They simply both have different priorities and interests. Not everyone enjoy playing the game in the same way.
When matched together and not happy about it, the big-puller might say "you're wasting my time with little pulls!", and the small-puller might say "you're wasting my fun with your big-pulls!".

Now if doing Duties in FF XIV was a declared e-sport, then yeah efficiency and speed as primary objective could not be argue against. But that's not the case. Final Fantasy XIV is just videogame that can be played for relaxed entertainment or for more competitive playstyle.

When a group is premade, there is no issues because each member can agree beforehand about what they expect from each other.
But as soon as you get into matched group, clashes can happen.

And when it comes to the forum topic about these issues, many of the comments I notice are about people trying to impose their playstyle unto others. And obviously they will never agree simply because at the source they don't have the same motivations and reasons for playing.

There is no magic solution and for me the best that can be done is compromising with others in each duty.
For example:

If you're a small puller and end-up with the rest of the group that favors big pulls then:
Can you practically (experience/gear) do big pulls?
Yes: Then make an effort and do big pull as most the group will enjoy it.
No: State to the party you can try but that you're bad at it, and let them decide to risk big pull or not.

If you're a big puller and end-up with the rest of the group that favors small pulls then:
Can you practically (time constraint) do small pulls?
Yes: Then make an effort and do small pulls as most the group will enjoy it.
No: State to the party that you have no time for small pulls, and let them decide if they wish to do big pull or not.

If you end up in party with half favoring big pulls, and the other half favoring smaller pulls then just do in between with moderate pulls.

It's not really complicated isn't it? At least one want to be selfish.

An alternative can be to simply leave dungeon or kick players out of group, but I don't that approach to be very social.
And the good thing about a compromising community is that it works both way, sometimes you will be the one to do the effort, another time someone will do the effort in your favor.



Now to go back more specifically on this topic about Healer dpsing.
As I explained just above, fastest speed of completion of a duty is not an argument, it's just a personal priority/preference when in a matched party.
That being said, in the context of a matched party:

Should a healer use its attack skills if he has nothing else to do and can easily do so while not endangering his healing capabilities?
I don't see why people argue about that. A healer has DPS capabilities and it's more productive for the group to use them than looking at the ceiling, than jumping around like a crazy Viera, or than starting to dance.
Now, one may like a different meta focused more on healing, and there is nothing wrong about that, but that's just not how the game apparently is.
So someone just idling (without any good MP management reason) or messing around is just being uncooperative, and it's legitimate to complain about it.

Should a healer be complained about because he favors being protective over being aggressive (in the dps meaning)? For example a WHM who prefers to make sure everyone is about 100% HP and everyone has Stoneskin before starting to DPS if he has the possibility.
For me the answer is no. For sure this will be less efficient than someone who can properly maintain everyone alive without the need to keep everyone topped and buffed, and do more DPS instead.
Yet, he is not being uncooperative and support the party in his own way. For me that falls into difference of playstyle that can happen when you use the Duty Finder.
But apparently looking at some of the reactions in this thread or similar topics, for some that's not even acceptable in a matched group. For me that's elitism and it does not help in anyway into building a nice community.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Yeah.. apparently here, others have the ability to choose your rights and your playstyle for you. What the living hell even is this argument? Im done wasting brain cells here. Its not even a debate.

A Strawman.

This stance falls flat for the precise reason Cynfael and Clef outlined: neither DPS nor tanks can get away with omitting a third of their abilities because "it's not my playstyle." Better yet, would you advocate this same defense for ice mages? What about Dragoon who dislike BotD? Warriors who want to keep Deliverance on 100% of the time? Only healers get any potential leeway by citing "its my playstyle" as an excuse. In any group activity, everyone is expected to carry their own weight. A healer refusing to DPS out of principle is essentially telling the party, "you do more work because I don't feel like contributing above the bear minimum."

[Cynfael]

Some good points, Chocolys. I agree that what defines fun for the player (whether individually or collectively as a party, the latter being occasionally problematic) is relevant.

I suppose where I would draw the line in your WHM example is where the player needlessly overheals and keeps up Stoneskin. Preferring smaller pulls because the player thinks they are more enjoyable is valid since you can't really debate something as subjective as fun; however, small pulls, while in most cases objectively inefficient, do not preclude good gameplay. This example WHM isn't contributing much more than the WHM who jumps around between heals; the former playstyle just looks more productive.

[Chocolys]

..This example WHM isn't contributing much more than the WHM who jumps around between heals; the former playstyle just looks more productive.

It certainly depends of the context. If we're talking about a place where there is no risk of sudden high damage on a player, then yes it's not much potentially productive. As the healer will have the time heal someone's mistakes.

But when you are in duty where any player can die by
- forgetting to get out of aoe
- getting cleaved because he suddenly ran in front of the boss
- the tank lose aggro for a moment to another melee dps and every critters just start bitting that DPS's butt and the DPS's HP bar melt faster than an icecream in the oven (rare but I 've seen it happens xD, just cited for the fun)
- etc....

then being topped and/or stoneskined can make the difference between a dead and a living player.

In such context, you can consider it is not your reponsability if the player died because you're not the one who made the mistake. But one can be a healer that do not like people dying on his watch, regardless of the cause, and who like to keep them topped to limit such eventually, even if I admit for sure its not the faster way to play. Also when you are in a matched group, you can't know how well they play or how they react to various mechanics.

A simple example is Ifrit HM (back in 2.0), I cant count how many times with matched-group I have prevented players from dying by healing them just before they forgot (or did not know) to move out of the incoming lava aoe, or before they ate a Dash. If I had chosen to DPS instead, and considered they had enough HP to live as long as they were not doing a mistake, then I would have seen dead peoples many times

Personally, as long as someone is not being a jerk, lazy or directly endangering the party, I consider that as a member of the team, it's my role to compensate if I can for that potential member defficiency.

By default with my WHM, if i'm playing with unknown people, I will mostly go into "preventing mode" trying to keep everyone topped in case they do mistakes (unless as said earlier there is no real danger around) and then DPS. Unless it's special moment where few Holies will be more efficient by preventing receving damage in the first place.
I will definitively go into "preventive mode" if it's a dungeon I am not familiar with since I have no idea what kind of damage might suddenly happen.

If someone is being dumb unpurposely and keep standing in a pool of poison, I'm still gonna keep healing him unless doing so endanger my ability to heal others, rather than letting him die and go DPS instead. I know many healers who would just let such player die. I'm not judging. But that's just not me.

If I see the group is struggling with DPS, then if I can I will switch to a more "aggressive mode" to compensate for the lack of damage.

As we both said, my default "preventive mode" is not the most efficient if all goes well. But it matches how I consider myself as a healer in the party, my priority being to keep everyone alive regardless if they do one dumb thing after another. That's how I like the role.

Now I'm not stubborn, and if the matched-teammates ask me politely if I could do more DPS instead of keeping them topped, I will. But the tank then better uses his cooldown efficiently and they better not cry if they die suddenly afterward because they were not topped :O

PS: Sometimes asking politely is beyond the capacity of some players
I can understand if you have no keyboard but I assume most do have ones if they play FF XIV.
It's one of the reason I encourage communication at the start of the matched duty instead of rushing immediately. Sometimes taking 2 minutes to learn a minimum about the other members can transform a potential frustrating run into an enjoyable experience. But no its all GO GO GO GO. It's like many consider other players as bots just there to complete their duty /shrug.

[xJimmehx]

neither DPS nor tanks can get away with omitting a third of their abilities because "it's not my playstyle."

I ugh...kinda find that sorta thing every single day in DF.. Tanks who stay in dps stances and dps who spam random moves. Dragoons who refused to do anything but main tank. Im surrounded by bad players and occasionally do hard content with pre-mades.
So i hate to break it to you but yes, everyone is getting away with it. Not just healers. As i said before though, I really dont care how they play as long as i get my completion. If completion becomes a problem then we talk. If talking leads to arguing, vote kick.

[Cleftobismal]

I ugh...kinda find that sorta thing every single day in DF.. Tanks who stay in dps stances and dps who spam random moves. Dragoons who refused to do anything but main tank. Im surrounded by bad players and occasionally do hard content with pre-mades.
So i hate to break it to you but yes, everyone is getting away with it. Not just healers. As i said before though, I really dont care how they play as long as i get my completion. If completion becomes a problem then we talk. If talking leads to arguing, vote kick.

I must point out, its not uncommon to turn off tank stance after you establish aggro during a normal dungeon duty.




We get it. Yall are lazy to go above and beyond to be meaningful to the party.


Your arguement's are not gonna convince us the majority who do believe in dpsing as a healer and clearly whatever we say is not gonna change your mind.



Hence this thread should die.

[Feyona]

By default with my WHM, if i'm playing with unknown people, I will mostly go into "preventing mode" trying to keep everyone topped in case they do mistakes

As we both said, my default "preventive mode" is not the most efficient if all goes well. But it matches how I consider myself as a healer in the party, my priority being to keep everyone alive regardless if they do one dumb thing after another. That's how I like the role.

Now I'm not stubborn, and if the matched-teammates ask me politely if I could do more DPS instead of keeping them topped, I will. But the tank then better uses his cooldown efficiently and they better not cry if they die suddenly afterward because they were not topped :O

[r[/QUOTE] I like what you say, your playstyle is close to mine and sounds much more reasonable than many of the posts here that seem very dogmatic, about how healers should play