As a healer, is it my job to DPS? A new perspective.

[KokonoeAiyoko]

Literally the way every single content in this game is designed and played supports healer DPS and nothing supports only healing. You can try to go out of your way to try to find alternative explanations for it (like, I don't know, aliens?), but as we all know the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

Actually, I could very well make that same argument with you. The difference here is that I'm using actual facts and you're trying to use conjecture, and in response to your conjecture, I'm throwing conjecture right back at you. Nothing you are saying is absolute as the game is literally not being designed with Healer DPS in mind. Just because you feel what you're saying is true doesn't mean it actually is and you don't have the proof to make such claims.

Good lord, not again.

Can't be bothered to rehash this again so soon.

There's plenty of information and opinion in the previous 40+ pages of discussion that explains why healers who refuse to contribute DPS to a party for reasons other than difficulty meeting the healing requirement or lack of experience are playing selfishly and suboptimally.

That bit about Assize and FATEs...I can't. Pass.

And I've covered most of those and have also explained why it's merely a bonus and not mandatory, yet the "For DPS" side of the argument keeps reusing their argument because they, as you've just proven right now, cannot stand anyone that doesn't agree with their view on this aspect of the game. No, I'm not going to agree Healers that do this are selfish, I'd honestly argue those who consider it "selfish" to not Healer DPS in a 4 man dungeon to be selfishly dictating how someone plays, even if they are going with the intended design of the game. I've seen time and time again on this topic that if someone disagrees, that a number of people will come into the conversation to tell you your view is wrong and that you should conform to their view instead of merely stating this is how you can potentially be optimal, and if they disagree, it's met with scorn.

So go ahead, pass, but all this is showing is another example of someone being on their high horse because their view is the most correct and all others should conform to it and if they don't, they're "bad players".

This caption defeats your own argument. If the group isn't in need of healing, you're expressly being told to contribute DPS, albeit in a roundabout manner. "If you have the time" is intended to imply just that: do you have time to DPS or will another hard hitting mechanic happen? If the answer to the latter is no, you should be DPSing. The Conjurer questline may as well beat you over the head with the sentiment of "don't just heal!" That being said, you can certainly refuse to stance dance to your fancy. Just don't expect me to dodge aoes or use my full toolkit. After all, why should I go beyond the basics of my job requirements if you aren't going to be arsed to? People accuse healers refusing to DPS as lazy because more often than not they are jumping around or just standing still-- literally doing nothing until the tank takes the smallest bit of damage.

If it said "If you have the time, you should throw in offensive magicks" or if it said "If you have the time, you must use offensive magicks in-between Healing to properly fulfill your role.", then it would imply what you are saying it would imply. However, it doesn't. It states "you may". They carefully worded that for a reason I'm certain, because with dialogue like that It's continuing how it is an optional thing, even when you have the time they still are referring to it as "may". It also goes along with a lot of the quotes I've posted earlier by Yoshi-P in this thread with how he views Healer DPS in this game.

To be quite honest, Healer is the only class in this game that literally is doing two separate roles on a consistent basis, and you probably will disagree with this, but I do not consider standing in AoEs the same as a Healer going out of their way to Cleric Stance and DPS. All classes have to avoid AoEs, including the Healer so that isn't a proper comparison, and as a DRK main, I consider my role to be achieving enmity and using my cooldowns at the right time, the primary role. DPS's primary role is to DPS, and Healer is to heal as stated in-game and well, with common sense, the title "Healer".

When you start going above this, which is honestly nice and I've been doing it ever since I was a fledgling Dragoon in this game, you start using abilities that do generally what are outside of your primary role, like say Second Wind on Bard that can generally help, or in certain fights a Keen Flurry to help mitigate 15ish% damage from a single attack, this is you going above and beyond your typical role in a party. In Healer's case, they generally have to go above and beyond far more than any other role in the game because of the potential of their DPS, it's generally why people praise Healer DPS because it can speed up a run several minutes if done properly and with a semi experienced Tank and DPS. It's also why you never see someone complain if a Bard didn't pop Second Wind when it could've kept them alive in certain moments.

With all of that said, this goes back to my original point. If you are achieving your most important aspect of your role, with the way this game is balanced, then you aren't being a "bad" player, just not the most optimal one. Until this game is designed with Healer DPS in mind, it will remain that way.

I feel like your other points were handled but nobody seemed to point out this line I don't think. This is an incredibly harmful to the player base view- shoot for the floor. You can have a dps or 2 afk the whole run and still have it completed within the 90 minute time frame, but does that make it right because it was accomplished? It's a silly concept to defend the idea of be the worst you can be because we'll still win.

Healer's aren't "AFK" if they are keeping everyone alive throughout the run and I feel that is an over exaggeration and a commonly used argument in this case. What happens when you AFK as DPS? Nothing dies. What happens when you AFK as Healer? You and the party die. That is an AFK Healer.

And this slippery slope argument that a Healer continuing to Heal is the same as a DPS sitting in AoEs and taking 90 minutes to finish the run is positively an improper comparison. Not only does none of that argument fit, but let's say for a second I'll entertain the argument for the sake of debate. People who are "bad" at the game will continue to remain that way regardless of the heckling done by players like yourself or others.

I've never seen in this game someone being told to DPS as Healer and they just start doing it, so at least in my experience, merely telling someone they can DPS in a run will almost never get them to do anything and thus for the sake of this improper argument I have to very clearly say, there is nothing to fear.

Your concept of "worst" is also a very black and white view and once again the issue I have with this thread and this argument. You are either good or terrible if you do or don't DPS as Healer and that goes to show why It's a flawed view in itself. There is no in-between, there is no "Well he's really good at healing, but I wish he would DPS." It's either you're bad for not doing it or not. No other role has this kind of criticism, and it's only because of the potency.

[Cynfael]

I feel like your other points were handled but nobody seemed to point out this line I don't think. This is an incredibly harmful view to the player base- shoot for the floor. You can have a dps or 2 afk the whole run and still have it completed within the 90 minute time frame, but does that make it right because it was accomplished? It's a silly concept to defend the idea of be the worst you can be because we'll still win.

You hit the nail on the head, here.

The attitude of "no one died, so I must be good" is deceptively toxic. The bar for victory in most content is so low that anyone should be ashamed to use this sort of excuse to justify poor gameplay.

[Cynfael]

Snip.

If I come across as dismissive, it's because we've covered exhaustively the circumstances under which a healer may be fairly expected not to contribute DPS, and the only circumstance in question, at least for me, is the healer who flat out refuses to do it because they don't want to or don't believe it to be part of their job.

As choosing to play suboptimally in a group setting is a selfish decision, I call it out as such.

You're resurrecting a line of discussion that has been beaten to death very recently, and I would be all for continued constructive discussion if something new were brought to the table, but I'm just seeing more of what we went over in the previous pages, and again, with due consideration for a healer's obligation to heal taking center stage.

[Locke_Rockwell]

I don't know why this is still an argument. The game IS designed with healers doing damage in mind, otherwise boss damage wouldn't be so low, and if the game wasn't designed for healers to do damage, then healers would have so much more to heal, which they don't. People that refuse this are just being stubborn or don't understand that this game is based around all jobs and all roles having to push out as much damage as possible in order to be playing efficiently. This Kokonoe person arguing that healers don't have to damage deal probably hasn't done any savage raiding or has any experience outside of normal dungeons in this game, so they don't have the experience with the game needed to be able to so strongly defend their point.

[Rennies]

It's not an argument, really. The only people complaining about the fact that using Cleric Stance is necessary to be a better player are just making excuses for their inability/unwillingness to contribute during downtime.

Can only imagine how little they contribute to groups in real life, lmfao.

[Taika]

Actually, I could very well make that same argument with you. The difference here is that I'm using actual facts and you're trying to use conjecture, and in response to your conjecture, I'm throwing conjecture right back at you. Nothing you are saying is absolute as the game is literally not being designed with Healer DPS in mind. Just because you feel what you're saying is true doesn't mean it actually is and you don't have the proof to make such claims.

As said, the game itself is the proof. The game itself does not support non-DPS healer play, but it does support DPS healer play in many ways. This is a fact and I've given many practical examples of it, some of which you have tried to find more and less far-fetched alternative explanations for. It's the objective truth that DPSing as a healer is the most effective way to play the role (apart from some specific circumstances) and the game itself supports this playstyle (otherwise it wouldn't be the most effective way).

Healer's aren't "AFK" if they are keeping everyone alive throughout the run and I feel that is an over exaggeration and a commonly used argument in this case. What happens when you AFK as DPS? Nothing dies. What happens when you AFK as Healer? You and the party die. That is an AFK Healer.

No, healers can keep everyone alive and still be literally inactive 83% of the dungeon. Like I did here. I was doing /icam and /mandervilledance and no one died.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

If it said "If you have the time, you should throw in offensive magicks" or if it said "If you have the time, you must use offensive magicks in-between Healing to properly fulfill your role.", then it would imply what you are saying it would imply. However, it doesn't. It states "you may". They carefully worded that for a reason I'm certain, because with dialogue like that It's continuing how it is an optional thing, even when you have the time they still are referring to it as "may". It also goes along with a lot of the quotes I've posted earlier by Yoshi-P in this thread with how he views Healer DPS in this game.

To be quite honest, Healer is the only class in this game that literally is doing two separate roles on a consistent basis, and you probably will disagree with this, but I do not consider standing in AoEs the same as a Healer going out of their way to Cleric Stance and DPS. All classes have to avoid AoEs, including the Healer so that isn't a proper comparison, and as a DRK main, I consider my role to be achieving enmity and using my cooldowns at the right time, the primary role. DPS's primary role is to DPS, and Healer is to heal as stated in-game and well, with common sense, the title "Healer".

When you start going above this, which is honestly nice and I've been doing it ever since I was a fledgling Dragoon in this game, you start using abilities that do generally what are outside of your primary role, like say Second Wind on Bard that can generally help, or in certain fights a Keen Flurry to help mitigate 15ish% damage from a single attack, this is you going above and beyond your typical role in a party. In Healer's case, they generally have to go above and beyond far more than any other role in the game because of the potential of their DPS, it's generally why people praise Healer DPS because it can speed up a run several minutes if done properly and with a semi experienced Tank and DPS. It's also why you never see someone complain if a Bard didn't pop Second Wind when it could've kept them alive in certain moments.

With all of that said, this goes back to my original point. If you are achieving your most important aspect of your role, with the way this game is balanced, then you aren't being a "bad" player, just not the most optimal one. Until this game is designed with Healer DPS in mind, it will remain that way.

If we are going to be that literal, I suppose I shouldn't use cooldowns whatsoever considering the narrative never specifies their necessity. Likewise, it does not emphasis DoT usage or aoe abilities. In fact, we're not even told our rotation. See, you cannot have it both ways. Either the narrative should be taken as the gospel or we're expected to look at the game design itself. The latter will promote healer DPS if one expects to be efficient at their role. White Mage and Astro were certainly not given Holy and Gravity-- two of the most potent aoes in the entire game -- to complete the MSQ. Nor would Cleric Stance even be an ability if that were the case.

The devs not accounting for healer DPS is due to the sheer difficulty that imposes on the raid as a whole. Gordias Savage was literally impossible without both healer DPS contribution. Even properly geared, the DPS checks were incredibly tight, which made the fight needlessly frustrating for many. By eliminating that one requirement, Savage was better balanced. In short, it's a simple adjustment to gameplay design in lieu of lowering DPS checks wholesale. That does not mean the intent was for healers to never DPS.

Your perception of each role is flawed. A healer has no greater responsibility than a tank, who is equally expected to deal damage while maintaining aggro. Technically, I could hold aggro by simply spamming Flash, Unleash or Overpower and do little else. By basic definition, I have performed my job "right". You consider cooldown usage a primary part of tanking yet... going back to earlier, nowhere are we told this except through game design (i.e. reading your tooltips).

Nevertheless, you are omitting an important factor. A healer can mitigate incoming damage if the target dies faster. They accomplish this by contributing to the DPS. What isn't alive to hit back needn't be healed through.

As for standing in aoes. Why should I lose my positionals or drop Ley Lines when you aren't willing to go beyond the very basics of your job? Frankly, you won't have enough to do in most content if I don't stand in things. Just as Taika showed, damage is so light, a healer can literally stand around doing emotes. You're a sub-par healer at best because you've ignored vital spells on your hotbar.

I'll be blunt. If all you fancy is healing, I will give you plenty to heal through. The DPS or Tank do not get to stand around doing nothing. Neither will you even if I have to purposely take damage. Now I'm patience with sprouts or people obviously struggling but veteran players being lazy? Nope. I stand in everything.

[Rennies]

Boop

I wish I could give you a Player Commendation. Take a Like instead.

[HyperiusUltima]

The devs not accounting for healer DPS is due to the sheer difficulty that imposes on the raid as a whole. Gordias Savage was literally impossible without both healer DPS contribution. Even properly geared, the DPS checks were incredibly tight, which made the fight needlessly frustrating for many. By eliminating that one requirement, Savage was better balanced. In short, it's a simple adjustment to gameplay design in lieu of lowering DPS checks wholesale. That does not mean the intent was for healers to never DPS.

Nevertheless, you are omitting an important factor. A healer can mitigate incoming damage if the target dies faster. They accomplish this by contributing to the DPS. What isn't alive to hit back needn't be healed through.

It was the design of Gordias that started the DPS Meta, and come Stormblood we may still be seeing DPS Meta. I agree with the fact that Healer DPS is playing 'optimally', and should be in most cases once you're familiar enough with stance dancing and finding the windows available as a healer, but the elephant is still in the room no matter what.

People are going to always pressure their healers into adding DPS come Lv 60 because it's not to 'help the player get better' but rather just to make their run faster, and it's generally accepted ever since we had those tight DPS checks. Of course, it varies from person to person, but a majority of the community see it that way.

Until they figure out something in Stormblood, this will more than likely be an endless circle jerk of arguments regarding the topic.

As for my personal input on the DPS Meta in general, I'm just going to flat out say: I don't like it. I do it for the sake of my team, but I do not like the feeling of being slammed when I'm not DPSing while keeping people's asses alive that are below 50% of their HP and something big(A11 Whirlwind) is going to come right at them and kill them.

I do not mean to be mean to anyone, but I'm just stating what I am seeing.

- End Rant -

[Bourne_Endeavor]

As for my personal input on the DPS Meta in general, I'm just going to flat out say: I don't like it. I do it for the sake of my team, but I do not like the feeling of being slammed when I'm not DPSing while keeping people's asses alive that are below 50% of their HP and something big(A11 Whirlwind) is going to come right at them and kill them.

I do not mean to be mean to anyone, but I'm just stating what I am seeing.

- End Rant -

To be fair, no one is advocating healers DPS to the detriment of actual healing. The argument has always remained "if you have time". Nonetheless, I do feel a significant problem with the current heal meta as a whole is the sheer ease in content outside savage. A healer shouldn't be in Cleric Stance 75% of a given run yet nothing hits hard enough to warrant not contributing to the actual damage. I mean, White Mage lost its footing this tier because groups simply don't need high burst healing. I'd rather content challenge the healing aspect because frankly, I like fights that push whatever role I've selected. We'll see if Stormblood does a better job than Heavensward did.