Should Cleric Stance be disabled in party instances?

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

^

Pretty much ^

Incorrect. Healer dps is not vital for anything other than carrying bad dps. Unlike tanks, where dps feeds back into enmity, a core mechanic, and dps, where dps is the entire primary purpose, a core mechanic, healer dps has no interactions with any of the healers kit, making it, at best, an extra side mechanic, not a vital core mechanic. If healer dps actually interacted with the healers kit in some way, I could concede the point, however, as of now, healers have no mechanic wherein dealing more personal dps affects their healing toolkit.

[Rawrz]

Incorrect. Healer dps is not vital for anything other than carrying bad dps. Unlike tanks, where dps feeds back into enmity, a core mechanic, and dps, where dps is the entire primary purpose, a core mechanic, healer dps has no interactions with any of the healers kit, making it, at best, an extra side mechanic, not a vital core mechanic. If healer dps actually interacted with the healers kit in some way, I could concede the point, however, as of now, healers have no mechanic wherein dealing more personal dps affects their healing toolkit.

Other than skipping phases.

[Ghishlain]

Other than skipping phases.

While I don't feel this is an important core of the healer kit, I will say that skipping phases / certain mechanics can most certainly reduce the overall healing requirements of a fight and thus reducing your personal healing strain; especially with the way how Alex is built this tier, skipping phases can help a lot. Skips I can think of on the top of my head that helps reduce healer strain:

-A9S killing Faust before it does it's raid buster AoE
-A11S skipping Lapis Lazuli means less healing going out for pyretic overall and skipping a shared tank buster in X-Laser Sword
-A11S skipping the first Blasty Charge limit cut reduces damage overall in the final phase (hi to double whirlwind)
-A12S killing Alex fast enough to not contend with Holy Bleed

There are probably more too but yeah, pushing DPS mostly isn't a detriment with the way fights are currently designed.

[Rivxkobe]

Incorrect.

Incorrect.

Why do you post as if you are right when you aren't?

Abilities in a kit don;t have to interact with the rest of the kit for it to be "vital". Healer DPs is vital in many situations, and extremely important. You post, but you forget the major theme and lesson learned while doing conjurer quests.

Really, at this point, I don't even know why I or anyone else even reply to you.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Tanks doing higher dps = More enmity, more time spent in dps stance to push their dps higher, interacts with their kit.

Dps dealing higher dps= Sort of the point of the dps class, has tools that interact with their dps abilities to boost their numbers higher.

Healer doing higher dps = ??? I have yet to see anything about them doing dps that directly interacts with the rest of the kit. Someone mentioned phase skipping, but that has nothing to do with the healer kit and everything to do with fight design. Honestly, the only lesson that the conjurer quest line teaches is, 'Work in harmony with nature or you'll kill yourself with your own spells.'

[CorvinusV]

...Unlike tanks, where dps feeds back into enmity, a core mechanic, and dps, where dps is the entire primary purpose, a core mechanic, healer dps has no interactions with any of the healers kit, making it, at best, an extra side mechanic, not a vital core mechanic...healers have no mechanic wherein dealing more personal dps affects their healing toolkit.

A tank's core function is to tank. Plus, the majority of high potency abilities for tanks do not have enmity multipliers—making them non-vital; a tank can tank just fine without putting out their max DPS and/or stance-dancing.
And healer DPS actually does decrease the amount of healing needed over the span of an encounter because it makes the encounter shorter.

I wouldn't call a tank or healer's DPS vital, but both should certainly participate as much as possible for efficiency, and not just when raiding.

[RiisWolf]

You know what's funny? People falling back on this silly "it's a vital part of their kit" or "you gotta use all of your tools to be competent", when ...

No, it isn't. For it to be vital, it means that it was made to be that, not something you fabricated just because it helps or rather hold your under geared party's hand through raids your DPS and OT should needed to be better and more importantly geared in. Not only do you have to use your VITAL skills to do your job, as a healer, to keep the party alive, you have to do it right. Your damaging abilities as a healer are not vital to the success of any of the party content. If it is vital to YOUR party's success then there is a serious problem with your party, such as they are inept, powerless/below entry level, weak/still undergeared, intentionally underperforming and/or dead.

And No, you can't, and you won't. Can't because there's certain actions that are less valued and are frequently or straight up useless. Won't because it's ALWAYS about the damage with these people. You have two choices if you've topped people off, further mitigating damage or take advantage of a thing that was given to you just to make solo content as a healer not suck. These people will praise you for attacking even if you've done the DPS part wrong. Refusing to melt 3 enemies with Holy for fear of MP starvation as if the very concept of control and moderation is unknown to you? They won't care. Neglect to use HoTs? They won't care if you're attacking even if your window of attack is shorter because of it. Wanna sustain yourself with clemency and stoneskin? Oh well now we got a problem cause less damage, oh wait that's a paladin. Sabotaging PLD DPS just cause you wanna DPS 100% of the time if you could? Those people will applaud you for it, while those of us on the receiving end of it and other sensible people will say "why are you a healer?" and "get your leeching butt off healer and stick to DPS".

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

A tank's core function is to tank.

Correct! Tanks do this by making sure they have the most enmity of the rest of the party, the vast majority of which comes from attacking and dealing damage, AKA dpsing. It is not a great leap of logic to think that by jumping into dps stance when you have aggro solid, that the extra damage you'll be dealing will be helpful in also keeping aggro, and unlike with healers, tank and off tank numbers are actually calculated, meaning that them maximizing their dps has legitimate, meaningful gains, rather than being a crutch to help the undergeared dps do their job. Incidentally, 3 of the 6 single target aggro gen moves are a part of the dps rotation for a reason.

[Cleftobismal]

Correct me if I'm wrong. But doesn't a tanks dps effect the amount of enmity they can control? The defense stance is a modifier of sorts to increase that. If that's the case wouldn't it be feasible for a really good geared tank to prevent the pull from being taken by a stellar DPS in the middle of the fight? (I'm not sure if Quelling strikes always works because I've seen otherwise) And on top of that the tank is contributing dps (by obvious means).

Although it's fair to say, if dps is lacking, it lies in the dps fault. Not the healer or tanks. I remember seeing this one A.S fight where a tanks DPS was 900, while a whm was 700 SCH 500. VS. a MCH 1600. while the others were 1500-1.2k.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Tanks dps increase the amount of enmity they generate. Every aggro generating attack, like BB or RoH has a modifier that increases the enmity they generate from that attack, x5.5 in the case of BB and PS, x5 from RoH, and x3.5 on savage, Skull, and... I forgot the name of the DRK one, so they generate extra enmity depending on the damage they deal with those moves, though DRK wants to use PS as little as possible due to job mechanics.

Admittedly I don't remember the tank stance modifier, but I believe it's in the ballpark of x2.7 on all moves, at the expense of those moves doing less damage. But yes, a good tank can comfortably hold aggro against any equally skilled dps in dps stance.