3.5/4.0 Speculation & Discussion (Spoilers)

[LineageRazor]

Even if they limited their brutality to those same people who had abused them, it's little more than revenge when you get down to it, and in case you weren't paying attention during 3.0 - 3.3, revenge is bad. So, if you go seeking revenge, then you're bad, mmkay?

I agree with Belhi: I didn't see the message of 3.0 - 3.3 being this at all. It didn't seem to be saying that vengeance is bad, but rather how you choose to pursue your vengeance determines whether you're bad or not. We were presented with at least two characters utterly devoted to vengeance: Nidhogg and Estinien. Estinien was presented as a very sympathetic character, and Nidhogg as a villain.

Nidhogg wasn't a villain because he wanted vengeance - he was a villain because he became a complete monster in pursuit of that vengeance. Nidhogg decided to torture an entire nation of people for centuries due to the actions of a few. Why? Because after succeeding in his vengeance on those few, he decided that he was still angry and so found someone else to pick on. This is what made him a monster, and why he needed to be put down.

Estinien, on the other hand, while just as obsessed with revenge, reserved that rancor solely for the individual responsible, Nidhogg himself. Once Nidhogg was dead his revenge was over; he didn't try to find some new target for his rage. In fact, he had to deal with the fact that he'd succeeded in his life's goal, and had never really planned what to do beyond that. Estinien was very vengeance-motivated, to be sure, but he was never really portrayed as bad.

Honestly, I didn't feel like Heavensward even HAD an underlying message. It was merely a story about a very unfortunate situation, in which many people reacted in unfortunate ways to unfortunate circumstances. The fault for all this lay with so many people both living and dead that pointing fingers was a fruitless endeavor, and the thing that nearly everyone wanted more than anything else was for it all just to end, one way or another. That was what the WoL accomplished, finally introducing change in a place that had been static for a very, very long time.

[Zohar_Lahar]

Honestly, I didn't feel like Heavensward even HAD an underlying message. It was merely a story about a very unfortunate situation, in which many people reacted in unfortunate ways to unfortunate circumstances. The fault for all this lay with so many people both living and dead that pointing fingers was a fruitless endeavor, and the thing that nearly everyone wanted more than anything else was for it all just to end, one way or another. That was what the WoL accomplished, finally introducing change in a place that had been static for a very, very long time.

Heavensward seems to have themes of duality, understanding the past, reconciliation, and removing extremes.

Duality: Ishgard and Dravania, Hraesvelgr and Shiva, Estinien and Nidhogg, Hydaelyn and Zodiark, the Light and Dark sects of the Fists of Rhalgr, Lowborn and Highborn

Understand the Past: The awful truth about the Dragonsong War, Scions learning the Ascians motivations, meeting Tiamat, the source of the Tonberry plague in SCH quests, the entire Shadow of Mhach raids, Travanchet giving the horn to Mide

Reconciliation: Peace talks with dragons, Hraesvelgr regaining trust in mortals, Ishgard rejoining the Eorzean Alliance, Widargelt's goal in the Monk job quests, Rostnsthal trying to atone for his past actions, Urianger's gambit in 3.4, Lolorito's confession to Raubahn

EXTREMES: Nidhogg's vengeance, God-King Thordan and the Knights of the Round, Emperor Varis's policies, Quickthinx Allthoughts, the Warring Triad, the fate of the Thirteenth World, the Flood of Light afflicting the First World, Ilberd

While these themes also existed in 1.0 and 2.0 to an extent, they are most prominently displayed here.

[Cilia]

Did you? I thought was agreeing with you...

(But no unsympathetic villain can top Satou from Ajin. Seriously. The entire world is his video game and he's the player with an infinite number of extra lives.)

I dunno, man.

(Terumi is probably worse. On top of not caring one lick about anything but his own goals, he literally sustains his existence by having people hate and fear him - and delights in making them do so by physically and mentally torturing them. As a ghost in his natural state, he is literally unkillable until magic shenanigans happen. Having lived through thousands if not millions of years of looped time and retained knowledge from every single one, he knows exactly how to push the cast's buttons for maximum sadism points. That sadism also carries over to his fighting style, which is based around rapid, multiple hits that deal light damage and includes vicious moves like stomping on downed enemies and dunking them into the floor. That said his ultimate goal, freedom, is sympathetic - unfortunately to him that means "kill God, destroy the world and recreate it in my own image.")

I agree with Belhi: I didn't see the message of 3.0 - 3.3 being this at all. It didn't seem to be saying that vengeance is bad, but rather how you choose to pursue your vengeance determines whether you're bad or not. We were presented with at least two characters utterly devoted to vengeance: Nidhogg and Estinien. Estinien was presented as a very sympathetic character, and Nidhogg as a villain.

...

Honestly, I didn't feel like Heavensward even HAD an underlying message.

The main theme of Heavensward was the cycle of revenge.

The Dragonsong War was kicked off and perpetuated by Nidhogg's vengeance. In retaliation for Ratatoskr's death he declared endless war on Ishgard, sadistically letting them live so they could rebuild and nearly be destroyed time and again, forever. In doing so he caused the deaths of countless Ishgardians and Dravanians alike, further entrenching their mutual hatred of each other and leading to a never-ending spiral of revenge. It was only by learning the whole truth that we were able to get Hraesvelgr to believe once more, and in doing so overcame the hatred (manifested as apathy instead of Nidhogg's wrath) that had consumed him as well - allowing us to triumph over Nidhogg's revenge in the very end. We broke the cycle.

Learning the whole truth is also an important theme, as most of Ishgard and the Heretics were running on half-baked ideals constructed from partial truths or outright lies.

Estinien isn't portrayed as bad for seeking vengeance (which I'm personally chalking up to values dissonance), but his lack of hesitation to threaten the dragons during our trip is. He reserves his hatred for Nidhogg, but will not hesitate to strike down or at least threaten any dragon that so much as looks at him the wrong way. Even after achieving his vengeance Estinien states that it feels empty - he is not fulfilled until after we have defeated King Thordan, ending both progenitors of the war in a sense and securing peace for Ishgard. It is only then that he feels a sense of comfort and relief. (How dramatically ironic.)