Nophica - Good for more than Gridanians?

[Kyran-Varlsen]

I don't think Halone and Nophica *feud* per se. They are rivals because their traits are opposite but they don't necessarily hate each other.

Halone is a goddess of fury and ice. Nophica is a goddess of nurturing and abundance.

If you compare Ishgard and Gridania they are pretty opposite - frozen tundra vs large forests, rigid tiered society vs hunter/gatherers, constantly at war vs trying to exist in harmony. The city states here I think really embody the differences between their patrons. As you get more into the Heavensward story, keep an eye on how those trying to make peace with the dragons (a Nophican approach) are treated in Ishgard.

Well I guess that does make sense. The proximity of the two city-states might lend itself to such a duality.

[Quor]

Dat goddess of fertility though. Althyk grant me strength for I am weak.

[TinyRedLeaf]

The key point to remember is that polytheistic cultures — unlike the monotheistic religions of Islam, Judaism and Christianity — do not have overarching religious texts to bind all the different tenets of the faith under a single, universal message.

For that reason, it's very rare for a person in a polytheistic tradition to worship just one god. As usual, it's useful to refer to real-life polytheistic traditions to gain a better understanding of how such religions work: They tend to be transactional in nature.

Take Taoism, for example. That's the tradition I grew up in. The Chinese don't limit their worship to just one god in the Taoist pantheon, and there are literally hundreds of them. On matters related to hearth and home, the Chinese would pray to the local Tudigong. When it comes to police and justice matters, the Chinese might turn instead to Guandi. And when times are especially harsh, people would seek mercy from Guanyin.

In other words, think of a giant celestial bureaucracy where each god takes charge of a specific portfolio. And when a need arises, a worshiper would pray for divine intervention from the relevant god (along with suitable sacrificial offerings, of course!). So, as you can see, it wouldn't make sense for worshipers to limit themselves to a single god in such traditions.

It's more or less the same for Eorzea. Sailors would pray to Llymlaen for a safe voyage. Farmers might turn to Nophica's blessings for a bountiful harvest. In death, people seek comfort in the knowledge that their souls would rest in Thal's realm.

That said, the Ascians approach faith in an entirely different way. For them, Zodiark is the one true god, and their belief in the Ardor is closer to the transcendental nature of monotheistic religions in the real world. But that, is another story altogether....

[FJerome]

Assuming the Twelve don't actually exist, the rivalry may have also just originated between the historical figures Nophica and Halone were based on. Two regular humans were just feuding for whatever reason and that got passed down into their mythology, even though it didn't make much sense given the respective spheres of power of the goddesses based on them.

[Fenral]

That said, the Ascians approach faith in an entirely different way. For them, Zodiark is the one true god, and their belief in the Ardor is closer to the transcendental nature of monotheistic religions in the real world. But that, is another story altogether....

In some religions, like Shinto, the strength of a god is believed to be directly proportional to the worship they receive. Bear in mind the Scions of the Seventh Dawn essentially go around killing "beast gods" believing their very existence damages Hydaelyn, who serves as our own "one true god." The parallels are pretty bad on our side, too.

[TinyRedLeaf]

In some religions, like Shinto, the strength of a god is believed to be directly proportional to the worship they receive.

It's the same for Taoism, actually. The Chinese would flock to temples or shrines where certain gods, or aspects of gods are known to be particularly effective at "answering" prayers. Needless to say, the said temples would grow in prestige and wealth, and this in turn draws even more worshippers, further boosting the gods' "influence".

The key difference to note is that temples and shrines don't have "congregations" the way Westerners understand the word, ie, a group of worshipers who dedicate themselves to "one true god". Rather, as I explained above, the Chinese have a very pragmatic approach to religion: Everything is seen as a transaction. The more one offers to the god or gods, the more one can expect to get in return (and if one gets nothing, well, it's perfectly understandable that one would turn to other gods for help). As far as I know, the Japanese approach Shintoism in much the same way.

Hydaelyn...serves as our own "one true god."

I'm not too sure about that. It's more accurate to say that the Scions are agnostic. They acknowledge the existence of gods pretty much the way all Eorzeans acknowledge the existence of aether. It's simply a fact of life. And the gods, and their powers, are to be tapped the way they would any other tool (hence Louisoix' plan to use a fraction of the Twelve's power to cage Bahamut).

Moreover, throughout this time, I don't recall any Scion ever praying to Hydaelyn the way they did that fateful day before the Calamity. So, in a sense, they acknowledge Her existence, but that in itself is not remarkable enough to merit "worship", as far as they're concerned. It's more like they understand that Hydaelyn is the very embodiment of their world, and if She dies, so does their star.

Assuming the Twelve don't actually exist.

And that is the fundamental mystery of Eorzean religion.

To ask if the Twelve exist is very much the same as asking whether God exists in our reality. No one knows. The Scions, like all Eorzeans, simply have faith that They do.

[FJerome]

And that is the fundamental mystery of Eorzean religion.

To ask if the Twelve exist is very much the same as asking whether God exists in our reality. No one knows. The Scions, like all Eorzeans, simply have faith that They do.

It's actually rather baffling to me that Sharlayans, who are so big on knowledge and learning, hold such faith because the available evidence is not on Twelve Worship's side. You would expect if The Twelve genuinely existed Twelve Worship would be the world-wide religion but it's not, it seems entirely confined to Eorzea and its passing resemblance to other religions, such as Sophia's parallels with Azeyma, only raise more doubts.

[Sounsyy]

So what does everyone else think? Is worship of Nophica okay in Ul’dah?

Like many others have said before, Eorzea is home to many, largely polytheistic cultures. While each city-state may take on one god as their patron or matron deity, worship of the Twelve extends beyond political borders to races, professions, and even birth months. You're more likely to find those that worship multiple, if not all Twelve, at once than you are to find someone who only worships one or none at all.

The same can be said regarding religion. Each city-state has a patron (matron) deity, and most people in that city-state will follow the teachings of that god or goddess. There are, for the most part, however, no strict religious codes that must be followed. Some Eorzeans will choose to worship a deity connected to their profession (for example, weavers often follow Nymeia the Spinner). Some follow the deity associated with their nameday. There are even some Eorzeans who choose not to follow the teachings of the Twelve, but they are few and far between...and often will not admit it.

The exception to this rule can be seen in Ishgard, where they take the teachings of Halone very seriously...to the point that the church and state have become inseparable. They go as far as calling those who do not follow the Fury 'unbelievers,' and those who are found to have communicated with the dragons of Dravania (the mortal enemies of Ishgard), are branded as heretics and in some cases executed.

Nophica, tender of soils and goddess of good harvests, is the patron deity of Gridania. While She does not want for devotees in other lands, only in the Twelveswood does one find the curious belief that the elementals are sprung from Her essence. These beings are at once the force of the forest's vitality and its defenders, ever ready to purge invaders from amongst the trees. Their presence is felt most keenly in the everyday life of Gridanians, and many are the festivals and rituals performed in honor of the elementals.

____________________________

3) Nophica’s name is also used in Thanalan to refer to some depleted water sources (Nophica’s Wells) so it does not seem that she is a completely foreign deity to Ul’dah.

There's actual a bit of interesting text from a very old Reinheart translation about Nophica that specifically talks about Nophica's Wells in Thanalan.

ノフィカの井戸について
スレッドの主旨とは少しこと違うのですが、良い機会ですので「ノフィカの井戸」について。
Not related to main topic of the thread but since it's good opportunity here's some info on Nophica's well.

十二神信仰は、地域ごとに差はありますが、基本的に多神教になります。自分の都市の守護神を、特に大切に扱うのが基本ですが、だからと言ってそのほかの神々を信じていない、ということではありません。（例外的に、守護神以外を格下と見る地域もあります）
There are differences in the twelve depending on the region but basically have multi god religion (?) You normally would protect/keep in mind of the guardian related to your city but it doesn't mean they don't believe in other gods. (Some region looks down on other gods)

ザナラーンという乾燥した地域に、忽然と水が湧き出る土地があったことから昔の人々が、「豊穣の女神ノフィカ様が、作物を実らせるために井戸を作ってくれたに違いない！」といった感覚で名付けたのが、例の地名になります。
For a dry region such as Thanalan there was a land that had water and for that reason the people thought that the goddess of harvest Nophica built a well for us so we can grow crops! so that's the reason behind the naming for that region.

Nestled between Hammerlea and Horizon's Edge, Nophica's Wells is a natural basin created by the recent cave-in of a massive network of underground caverns. As a rare source of water in the deserts of Thanalan, the area is lush and verdant, as if blessed by Nophica, the goddess of abundance.

____________________________

So why would the Goddess of War feud with the Goddess of Abundance? There seems to be no obvious reason.

From the lore book:

Though more open to Her new father's teachings, Halone, too, grew restless, longing to test Her strength.
An opportunity arose when Oschon invited the young goddess on one of His journeys.
It was during these travels that Halone's ambition slowly transformed into a lust for battle.
While on the road, She would challenge every creature She met, honing Her skills and methodically devising new techniques for killing.

When Nophica, mother of the life, learned of Halone's wanton destruction of Her creations,
She was angered beyond words and swore revenge, but the Fury ignored the Matron's challenges, widening the rift between the two.
Oschon, feeling responsible for this rift, devised a plan to calm Nophica.
From within the mountains of His creation, Oschon summoned a fount of magma which spewed forth onto the land.
Upon cooling, the magma took the form of the Twelfth and final god - the dual aspected Nald'thal.
With Nald'thal, Oschon had provided a god to oversee the souls of those who met their deaths and provide them with peace in the afterlife.
Satisfied that Her creations would no longer wander the void aimlessly, Nophica agreed to a truce with Halone.

Hope this helps! If you're still curious about the various religious beliefs held in Eorzea about the Twelve, I have a rough compilation of religious lore in a post that you might find helpful. It was written well before the lore book though, so there are some missing details, but it does have quite a bit about religion in Ul'dah that you might find helpful for your character's development.

[Kyran-Varlsen]

I had no idea about the lore book, it certainly seems chock-full of the backstory I felt was missing from the setting. Thank you!

All this information is wonderful actually. In fact, I had not expected the community to be so forthcoming with such details.

[Fenral]

Moreover, throughout this time, I don't recall any Scion ever praying to Hydaelyn the way they did that fateful day before the Calamity. So, in a sense, they acknowledge Her existence, but that in itself is not remarkable enough to merit "worship", as far as they're concerned. It's more like they understand that Hydaelyn is the very embodiment of their world, and if She dies, so does their star.

That is how monotheism works, though. The idea that one particular being is supreme over all others, and even more importantly that said being is responsible for the whole of existence is YHWH in a nutshell, the argument being that if there's something more powerful out there, the things less powerful can't be called "gods" anymore. The only weirdness in FFXIV is that the Ascians acknowledge Zodiark as their one true god, but the word "god" as used by humans refers to beings of a lesser standing to Hydaelyn.

But I'm pretty sure the Ascians have no beef with the Twelve that we've seen, so comparing them to oppressive monotheism isn't exactly fair. If anything, they've spent more time trying to empower lesser gods against Hydaelyn than they have anything else.