The Remaining Healers

[Talraen]

They've always been the tankier of the mages, barring possibly blue mage, traditionally have had a very versatile role in parties, had several defensive and offensive spells, and used both sword play and magic to fight, debuff, and strengthen allies, while being capable of taking several hits, depending on build and game. In some games they can use a shield as well.

The most versatile role in this game has always been tanks. It's only natural looking at both the design choices of this game and the general design of jobs in the varied roles.

No, they've actually never been the tankier of the mages. Not in FFI, not in FFIII, not in FFV, and not in FFXI. They have on occasion been pretty good offensively, but they have never been good defensively. The best argument one could make is that the combination of all their buffs allowed them to basically live forever in FFXI, but that was less "tanking" than winning a war of attrition due to having endless MP.

White mage has been tankier than red mage on several occasions, though in most cases they both share the worst armor in the game. (This is probably due to the influence of D&D, where clerics wore armor and any class that had magic user spells didn't, hybrid or not. I've always assumed the original red mage is vaguely inspired by a D&D bard, also a light armor class.) This is actually most true in FFXI, which is where red mage is the most tank-like. White mage gets decent shields and even some honest to god heavy armor in that game.

So could they make red mage a tank? Sure. I mean ninja ended up being a tank in FFXI. Would it have any basis in an existing Final Fantasy red mage's role? No.

1- Melee ranged combatant
2- Magic ability that allows it to cure and protect itself (cure, blink and similar spells)
3- Not the best at healing -- Can't compete with actual healers at their job
4- Not the best at dpsing -- Can't compete with actual DPS at their job

Sounds like either a new class type (Hybrid, Support, etc.) or a tank.

So your argument boils down to "it can't be a DPS, and it can't be a healer, so it must be a tank"? I mean that's kind of insulting to the concept of tanking. Should dark knight have therefore been a healer, since traditionally they had heavy armor and good offense, and thus couldn't be a tank or a DPS?

DPS are defined by offense, healers are defined by healing, and tanks are defined by defense. Red mages traditionally have had offense and healing, but never (despite the repeated baseless claims in this thread) defense. They don't wear heavy armor, they don't have a lot of hit points, and they don't generally have unique defensive abilities beyond those of the white and black mages they represent. I mean, I guess they have Phalanx in FFXI, so that's something.

I agree with you that red mage doesn't slot nicely into DPS or healer, but that doesn't make it a tank. I'm actually very curious (and a little concerned) to see what they do with red mage.

[Docent]

So your argument boils down to "it can't be a DPS, and it can't be a healer, so it must be a tank"? I mean that's kind of insulting to the concept of tanking. [...] and tanks are defined by defense

Well, warriors are known for their offense, despite being tanks. That's because tank isn't mostly about defense, it's about threat first and foremost. The tankiest characters who don't have agro aren't tanks. They're just hard to kill.

Historically, RDM has good grounds for being a tank, but not because of their stellar HP pool or high DEF or magic DEF, as people often point out. What they have is tremendous EHP (Effective Hit Points) through their ability to cast healing spells. a 600 HP mage able to cure 4000 hp is a lot sturdier than a 800 hp fighter who takes 20% less damage per hit.

[Talraen]

Well, warriors are known for their offense, despite being tanks. That's because tank isn't mostly about defense, it's about threat first and foremost. The tankiest characters who don't have agro aren't tanks. They're just hard to kill.

Historically, RDM has good grounds for being a tank, but not because of their stellar HP pool or high DEF or magic DEF, as people often point out. What they have is tremendous EHP (Effective Hit Points) through their ability to cast healing spells. a 600 HP mage able to cure 4000 hp is a lot sturdier than a 800 hp fighter who takes 20% less damage per hit.

A white mage would have much higher "EHP" than a red mage in this case, given that their HP, armor, and healing capabilities are always as good or better. They even get shields sometimes! Should they also be tanks?

As for warriors, I don't know if you've played FF1, but they are absolutely a tank. They basically exist to be put at the front of the party and take 1 damage from the attacks that decimate every other class. And they evolve into knights, which in Japan are paladins, so FF1 actually covered both of the original tank classes by itself pretty nicely.

The problem with determining which FF classes are tanks is that the idea of threat does not apply to most games in the series. FF1 was the closest example, since party order determined who was most likely to be attacked, and lo and behold, it's the game with the most tank-like classes. Other than that, what part of any FF job actually suggests tanking? Mostly just the paladin's cover ability.

So with the idea of threat being non-applicable to every FF game that has jobs or classes, we need to go by something else. And it's pretty obvious that the through-line for tanks in FFXIV is "heavy armor." No one else can use it in this game, and every tank class so far uses heavy armor traditionally. (Dragoons generally do too, but given that their signature ability takes them out of play for a turn, they would hardly make good tanks. )

EDIT: I want to make it clear, I'm not saying red mages can't or shouldn't be tanks. Hell, I think that would be pretty interesting. What I'm saying is there is absolutely no basis in the series of making them tanks.

[ErdrickLoto]

A white mage would have much higher "EHP" than a red mage in this case, given that their HP, armor, and healing capabilities are always as good or better. They even get shields sometimes! Should they also be tanks?

At least early on in Final Fantasy I red mages had better armor than white mages. Worse HP, though, though from the bases it's just three less.

I'll have to do more in-depth research later, but the scales definitely aren't as tipped in the white mage's favor as you seem to be making them.

[Talraen]

At least early on in Final Fantasy I red mages had better armor than white mages. Worse HP, though, though from the bases it's just three less.

I'll have to do more in-depth research later, but the scales definitely aren't as tipped in the white mage's favor as you seem to be making them.

By all means, please do research! I highly recommend my own guide site, http://guides.gamercorner.net/ff/. It has all the information you could ever want on a game that I've been obsessed with for years.

With that said, I can tell you right now what the conclusion is. Here's the list of armor a red wizard can use that a white wizard can't (using NES names):
Wooden armor
Chain armor
Silver armor
Buckler
Silver gauntlet (red wizard only)
Zeus gauntlet (red wizard only)
Power gauntlet (red wizard only)

White wizards have only one piece of armor red wizards can't use, the white shirt.

The chain armor is the reason people think red mages are good tanks: it's the best armor available in Coneria by far, and is only usable by fighters and red mages. However in terms of armor that's better than what other mages get, that's it. Their next unique upgrade is the silver armor, which is slightly better but doesn't become available until you have the magic key, at which point you've also found silver bracelets. Silver bracelets are available to everyone, have the same absorb as chain armor, but have a much smaller evasion penalty (even than the silver armor). Basically, once you reach this point, red mage armor goes from way better than other mages' to slightly better than other mages'. Once you get the airship, you can get gold bracelets, and the red mage loses any body armor advantage.

The buckler is a legit win for the red mage, but it's worth only two absorb, and in the very long run is replaced by the ProCape anyway (and anyone can use those). The various gauntlets are another interesting case. You can (and should) get the better ProRings as soon as you have an airship, while the gauntlets require the class upgrade to be used. They may see use on a red mage for their abilities (especially if you're playing on an NES where inventory space is at a premium), but they're never a defense upgrade over other mages.

So in conclusion, red mages have better armor than other mages, and in fact every other class in the game except fighters, up until you finish the Marsh Cave and defeat Astos. Which is a part of the game a lot of people remember because it's such a pain. But it's less than 1/4 of the way through the game, and after that point red mage armor is essentially the same as any other mage. By the time of the class change it's identical.

[ErdrickLoto]

By all means, please do research! I highly recommend my own guide site, http://guides.gamercorner.net/ff/. It has all the information you could ever want on a game that I've been obsessed with for years.

Double-checked, and you're right. Not sure what I was thinking of... maybe Bravely Default or something?

Either way, I'd still like to see Red Mage Tank, but I'll admit that there's no basis for it.

Anyways, actually on topic, I'd definitely like to see a more debilitate-y healer, like Dancer or possibly Chemist. (I'd prefer Chemist anyways because of Tactics References, though they can use concoctions to debilitate enemies, like that are in games already.)