Why is Yoshi P turning his back on the playerbase that loves this game the most?

[Reynhart]

How would horizontal progression create endgame?

First, let me say this : Horizontal progression is basically impossible as long as the the level cap is increased.

Now, if we suppose than HW kept the lvl 50 cap, horizontal progression would mean that gear obtained from the three parts of Coil, the three parts of Crystal Tower, the three parts of Alex and the two (soon three) parts of Mhach could all be relevant in a way. Of course, you wouldn't need all items from every instance for every job, but at least one item in each could still be interesting.

[Velhart]

I think "vertical progression" is not the only reason why WoW has been succesful for such a long time. Do they have the same 6-month gear lifespan ? That same gap between facerolling dungeons and brutal savage raids ? The same lack of varied stats and bonuses on gear ?

Yes it is not the only reason WoW is successful. Despite some high ends and low ends, WoW does usually give quality content which is what truly matters at the end of the day, rather you go vertical or horizontal. People are attracted to quality of content. WoW has major updates every 6-7 months(usually), and the gear ilvl does rise. Actually what FFXIV does differently is offer those semi-horizontal patches between each ilvl increase as a catch up patch. How WoW and FFXIV approach gear scale is similar, but not completely the same.

[Reynhart]

WoW has major updates every 6-7 months(usually), and the gear ilvl does rise.

Are those items always earned the same way ? Because one issue, for me, is the over-usage of tomestones.
Basically, since HW, you could have earned a decent full set of lvl 60 items by only doing level 50 content over and over again...

[Remedi]

Are those items always earned the same way ? Because one issue, for me, is the over-usage of tomestones.
Basically, since HW, you could have earned a decent full set of lvl 60 items by only doing level 50 content over and over again...

it was during TBC, WOTLK, CATA and partly in MOP, where they started to change it every single expansion, now in legion what you can can actually scale in power,items you find in dungeon can end up beign even more powerful than raid gear if RNG clicks with you. Can be a good think, can be a bad thing, some ppl are actually pissed because some items for world bosses are essentially BIS for the entire expansion, provided that said boss spawn, said items drops and said items rolls higher ilvl.( aka you need to farm that boss everytime the ilvl jumps higher)

[Velhart]

Are those items always earned the same way ? Because one issue, for me, is the over-usage of tomestones.
Basically, since HW, you could have earned a decent full set of lvl 60 items by only doing level 50 content over and over again...

I base this off older WoW, but then it had normal dungeon and heroic versions of those dungeons, 10-man and 24-man raids and heroic versions of them. Have the vault raid and some trial fights that all drop gear to help. All had a nice level of challenge that was very approachable by casual and midcore, and heroics for the hardcore players. I am not entirely sure how it is structured now, but when WoW gave a major update, it was a major update. The downside however is fatigue can come in fast a few months in if you are someone who plays a lot of hours a day. FFXIV with a similar issue at least has odd number patches in between. It is the one downside to vertical in general if you are someone who puts a lot of hours into the game a day.

I think WoW benefits from a bigger team also. If FFXIV's team was bigger I believe they could get a little more oomph out of each patch.

[Iromi]

Oh..I was reading this thread earlier on my phone but not logged in cuz my token..haha ^^ Someone wanted to know where SE/Yoshida implied that 2.0 would be an improved upon 1.x? Just read any and all of the 1.x forums dev posts along with the Reinheart translation thread from 1.x days, there is a plethora of info in there. Everything was worded in a way that made it seem like it would just be an improved upon 1.x, not an entirely changed game.

(Including our preview of 2.0) http://kotaku.com/5849775/first-look...iv-version-20/

It wasn't considered a concept, we were told it was an actual screen shot of the game play back in our download packet we got from the SE website. In the player polls we were told the choices would be implemented as they update the game. They asked us if we wanted the battle changed..in 1.18. At that time the battle system that was in place was the one where anyone could use any skills and it was really odd. No one liked it so we asked to change it..so in 1.19 (Or 1.20) they condensed the skills, and fixed it. The excuse now was "oh everyone voted to change it entirely so we did lulz" no, we wanted the 1.0 one changed, it was..and then 1.x players were happy with that. AND when we were talking about the battle system, we meant the "check" system that made the whole game LAG. Anytime you did an action , the server had to recognize it before another could be performed. That was what most folks meant when they voted to have it changed.

The most complaints I saw from 1.x players were they wanted the lag gone and they wanted more content to do. You can also google the FFXIV player polls and dates and read the 1.x series patch notes and see how it doesn't line up. There is a reason nearly all the 1.x players have given up. All of my friends I knew who played then all have long quit, saying that they did not want a WoW like game, they wanted an improved upon 1.23B (again, google the patch and see how the game was)

I am not going to sit here all day and look up stuff, but if you really want to know I can point you in the right direction. Anyway, as the game is now I will always say it struggles with longevity, and I personally despise the ilvl. It makes the game forced in this endless repetition and makes gear obsolete so quickly.

The other thing I wanted to say is the entire reason I bought 3.0 was because in countless interviews (You can read them all on the BG Stickied interview thread with linked sources) how Yoshida said he would put the interesting stats back (As he said since the 2.0 alpha forums when we saw what become of our stats on our relics) and he said he would begin with 3.0, although very slowly. He would start off with gear set bonuses, then eventually put the interesting stats back. He also said we would get new summoner pets, (Again, the links with sources is on bg) which we also got told right before launch, so sorry, you summoners aren't getting anything...just egi glamour. 3.x is nearly over and we have neither. I felt really let down and foolish for believing everything I read and heard from him.

I am not calling Yoshida a bad person, he is a business person, so he did what he had to do. However now I have learned..and I am like OP, I gave up asking for things from SE and participating in live letters. I know this is a dev team that cannot do it. They cannot add stats, they cannot add diversity, and they certainly cannot add longevity. I have conceded and accepted that this dev team cannot make a game like they envisioned. Long gone are the days where Square Enix is innovative and sets global standards for MMOs and games. They are content with this type of content and playing it safe. You should stop expecting anything more from them for it will only lead to disappointment.

Now, when the game is updated..all I do is read the patch notes. I don't bother with the hype or the interviews anymore. It's just too much of a let down. :/

[Sandpark]

First, let me say this : Horizontal progression is basically impossible as long as the the level cap is increased.

Now, if we suppose than HW kept the lvl 50 cap, horizontal progression would mean that gear obtained from the three parts of Coil, the three parts of Crystal Tower, the three parts of Alex and the two (soon three) parts of Mhach could all be relevant in a way. Of course, you wouldn't need all items from every instance for every job, but at least one item in each could still be interesting.

Horizontal progression is still very possible whether the level cap raises or not. XI was once level 50 then gradually raised to 75 where it stayed a long time.

The type of progression really doesn't matter, it's the rate of the gear being one upped or ousted. Now as far as content becoming outdated, that very much has to do with levels increasing and gear being outdated. Even if the cap remained at level 50, the older gear is still subpar compared to gear dropped in later content. There are two ways to keep content from becoming obsolete.

1.No frequent level/gear cap raises and horizontal progression.
2.Frequent level/gear cap raises and vertical progression, all content becomes level/ilvl synched.

For the second to work, the level/gear raises must be very minimal and similar in stats.

Are those items always earned the same way ? Because one issue, for me, is the over-usage of tomestones.
Basically, since HW, you could have earned a decent full set of lvl 60 items by only doing level 50 content over and over again...

That is by design. If there is no reason for veteran players to revisit older content, then new players coming into the game have longer queue times in duty finder or at worst are unable to advance the main story. Which is a bad thing considering so much content is gated behind the main story and sidequest to advance and unlock things.

Think of all the people in XI who couldn't clear CoP, they were unable to advance in areas they paid for. I suppose a solution would be to stop making so many rites of passage to progress and make the story stuff even easier than it can be now. I love my rites of passages, but at the same time, I would hate to come to a standstill in progress because it is too difficult to clear or get parties for.

If SE did a 180 and made the game horizontal and tuned everything towards large groups and super difficult gameplay, with no reason for revisiting older content . They would gain a niche and probably be loved devoutly by the ones who play. For the rest of the people who are more anti-social or not as skilled, or not able to invest that amount of time, the game would come to an end for them.

The only solution I see that doesn't go to extremes ousting other playstyles is extending the duration gear is relevant. Say instead of refreshing gear every 3 months. Extend that to 6 months or a year with content that supports that method. Or go the route of Guild war 2 and Elder Scrolls Online which is level synch everything and offer horizontal progression in the form of Champion Points or The Mastery System. I hate the notion of all is level synched but do like the concept of character horizontal progression vs gear progression provided insane grinds are not in the mix.

[Kohta]

Well, put that on perspective as buying a single player J-RPG. Over the course of 2 years, a new expansion will provide far more hours of content, and we still have new content every three months.

If you take away tomestones, what content is there?

[FizzleofHyperion]

Iromi: god forbid you bring any of that infront of Velhart because SE doesnt owe us anything especially not for going against what 1.0 players wanted.

[Deathgiver]

Iromi: god forbid you bring any of that infront of Velhart because SE doesnt owe us anything especially not for going against what 1.0 players wanted.

Hate to tell you, but the players who actually stuck around in 1.0 were the minority of even 1.0 players. The majority of 1.0 players wanted something different too. Even looking at "Legacy" players, I think you're in the minority. I know very few people that I played with in 1.0 that actually preferred the direction the gaming was going back then to what it is now. Of course both my opinion of what the people I know think, and yours, are subjective, based on the actual people we played with then and now.