Yoshi-P on Character Growth

[Alahra]

No, of course not !
MNK is the better choice...oh, wait, if you have a BRD and MCH, DRG piercing debuff can be useful, so DRG is a better choice, and you want a BRD for Requiem if you have BLM...but if you don't have a DRK and face a magical foe, then Dragon Kick is invaluable...so MNK is the best choice...or is that NIN ? No, NIN is only really good if you already have a WAR for Eye...but you might end up with a PLD...

That's essentially the kind of thing I'm getting at, yes. Character choices (of which jobs are the main example FFXIV has right now) should have implications for group building and playstyle. The game can support that kind of thing because it already does. That is not to say that it is easy to balance (WoW is a great case study in how difficult it can be), which is part of why I would like to see only relatively simple choices to start that would be easier to balance in practice, with perhaps the room for expansion later.

[Reynhart]

The game can support that kind of thing because it already does.

The game can support different setup because it already does.
The game can support someone not being optimally geared for content, because it already does.
The game can support someone not being optimally skilled for content, because it already does.
The game can support the small minority of people who want real challenge, and on-the-edge gear, setup, and skills, because it already does.
And all those things works fine together...

[Alahra]

The game can support different setup because it already does.
The game can support someone not being optimally geared for content, because it already does.
The game can support someone not being optimally skilled for content, because it already does.
The game can support the small minority of people who want real challenge, and on-the-edge gear, setup, and skills, because it already does.
And all those things works fine together...

I'm not really sure what you're getting at—but there's a common argument against providing character choices in FFXIV that basically says it wouldn't work in the game. That's what I was referring to.

[Reynhart]

I'm not really sure what you're getting at—but there's a common argument against providing character choices in FFXIV that basically says it wouldn't work in the game. That's what I was referring to.

Yes, and I pointed out that that argument is just hollow. Any discrimination people are fearing can already be in the game. Yet, it mostly doesn't prevent people from doing what content they want.
(Except Gordias, but Yoshi-P himself acknoledged that Gordias was really flawed)

[Seiryuukishi]

From my standpoint I see it like this... First off, we could do with some more difficult open world content for certain. I won't deny that. Ever. We need dedicated areas for said things. Those whom are leveling or progressing through story don't need their tails ridden by a monster that can kill them in one glance. There is always a time and a place for things. Secondly, populations rise and fall in MMOs all the time. WOW, FFXI, LotRO, etc are all victims of this. You can please some of the people some of the time but you cannot please everyone all the time.

It is, in effect, impossible to do so. Yoshida knows this and he even states there are tons of things he wants to put in but can't. I am 100% certain he would love to cater to everyone but that is never going to happen. Let's be realistic here, hardly anyone has the time to dedicate to what they play now(adults at least with jobs, kids, etc.). Making things rougher is not the solution to everything. The current gear system allows new players to catch up with relative ease and veterans with obligations the ability to relax while progressing. It is rather beautiful in its simplicity actually. I know it is frustrating to log on to what seems like the same old, same old. Trust me I've not had a full set of ilvl current gear since Ironworks because of how tedious it is. But I also know the value of the system and appreciate it for what it is. Just my take on it.

[Neophyte]

For me, no matter how much my DPS goes up, if the way I'm playing has not changed, I don't feel the impact of my gear. It has to change how I play for it to have an impact. If my spells are going off faster, if one spell is improved over the others, if my DoTs are improved over my other spells. These are changes in how I play the game. These are changes I can feel. I don't feel my DPS going up in the current system, I can only see it.

If you want to have a different playstyle, FF enables you to change to whichever job you want and be geared to do whatever content you want in a reasonable time.
And for now that's all you get in differentiation.

I know, people can demand everything without having to think it really through, but..
Let's just look at the dev team.. we don't know the actual size, but what we know is this: They were able to create 3 jobs for one expansion + 5 skills for existing classes. Followed by months of tweaking. And people where or are still upset with a lot of things.

How long do you think they'll need to expand the skills of all 13 jobs to have at least 2-3 different "playstyles" each?
Even if they want to do something like this (it's not like they can do everything they want to), they would have to aim for 5.0 or 6.0, maybe?! Ye, present that to the people who say "I AM BORED NOOOOW"...
They're lost (for now) anyway, any such deep system change created withing a timespan of only 3-6 months can only end up in failure.
To put that lot of work into a new system, which is (possible) harder to manage and which is no guaranted success is a high risk, so there have to be drastic loss of players before that. Because if people want drastic changes like 1.0->2.0, then there has to be circumstances like in that time.

Also I personally rather want new jobs to differintiate playstyle more than to get different templates for the existing classes. That kinda suits the old FF job style.

[Seiryuukishi]

When is support by reason, it does. Reasons for players to know what the truth of the server population and activity is, comes from the need to know how healthy their game is.
Reasons for SE to keep numbers secret are all driven by their need to make the game look good, they are logically much more inclined to hide or alter numbers.

It is reasonable then to think that Players censuses are much closer to the reality than anything SE will ever give us.

That's not entirely logical. Some larger companies will outsource certain information to gain knowledge that they themselves do not have time to obtain themselves. Also, looking at subscriptions would require someone to look at personal information of consumers which is generally frowned upon unless absolutely necessary. Hence the fudging of numbers based on other statistics.

[Seiryuukishi]

And what utility would that be? Maybe I missed something here. Oh wait... APOC, now I get it.

You forgot about virus and eye for an eye... Don't judge me I've saved many the run by having eye for an eye on my hotbar.

[Kaurie]

If you want to have a different playstyle, FF enables you to change to whichever job you want and be geared to do whatever content you want in a reasonable time.
And for now that's all you get in differentiation.


I know, people can demand everything without having to think it really through, but..
Let's just look at the dev team.. we don't know the actual size, but what we know is this: They were able to create 3 jobs for one expansion + 5 skills for existing classes. Followed by months of tweaking. And people where or are still upset with a lot of things.

How long do you think they'll need to expand the skills of all 13 jobs to have at least 2-3 different "playstyles" each?
Even if they want to do something like this (it's not like they can do everything they want to), they would have to aim for 5.0 or 6.0, maybe?! Ye, present that to the people who say "I AM BORED NOOOOW"...
They're lost (for now) anyway, any such deep system change created withing a timespan of only 3-6 months can only end up in failure.
To put that lot of work into a new system, which is (possible) harder to manage and which is no guaranted success is a high risk, so there have to be drastic loss of players before that. Because if people want drastic changes like 1.0->2.0, then there has to be circumstances like in that time.

Also I personally rather want new jobs to differintiate playstyle more than to get different templates for the existing classes. That kinda suits the old FF job style.

I think that creating an entire new class would take longer than making some of the minor changes to existing systems that I have been proposing.

People also are not "demanding" things, they are expressing their input, so that the dev team has the knowledge to design a game that caters to their playerbase.

[Seiryuukishi]

The thing is, small changes to skills can make the class play more fluidly for you. For example, I want to play a Black Mage, I had a lot of fun with it in 2.x. However, I hate enochian and ley lines. I could talent away into something that plays a little bit more fun, so that I can enjoy BLM. It won't be my raid job (SMN), but I could play it in expert roulette and extreme primals for fun.

Okay, I get how toggle skills can be annoying. The way I approached Black Mage when I leveled it to 60 was this(for the funsies ;P). I grabbed the gear I had for it and went straight for the highest dungeon I had access to. I knew Ley Lines increased spell speed and knew Enochian was required for Blizzard IV's use so by extension Fire IV's too. I read no guide nor watched one and asked no advice. I did four dungeons until "I" thought I had it worked out then asked. Turns out I was right about the rotation and guess what? Learning it was the fun part