A (Highly Theoretical) Look at the Cycle of the Eras

[Nalien]

Like the OP to this thread, the lore book suggests that perhaps the event from Moghome mythology refers to this calamity.

Because I still refuse to accept Moghome as being that old, and my Clan Marks just highlighted something for me;

The idea that Nidhogg has enough power to destroy the entire floating continent gives me pause; he doesn't ever seem to be that powerful.

Did Nidhogg have to do it alone? Surely, as is currently the case in the Churning Mists, his hoard would have assisted in the complete destruction of the Landlords civilization there?

Now, how did Clan Marks highlight anything here? Amphipteres. Specifically, they have a move called Calamitous Wind.

Heck, the flapping of enough dravanian wings alone is probably enough to constitute a "wind calamity" for the Moogles.... If they made note of one Calamity though, why not the rest? The second Calamity seems to involve volcanic eruptions? They're living on a rock suspended atop the biggest volcano around! That's not the kind of event you nap through and make no record of... I refuse to believe they remember the first era, but not subsequent ones... Plus the whole mix up with the Twelve, and Thordan and his Knights Twelve is just too perfect... Moghome took a Chieftain, because they served the Skylords, the Twelveswood took a King, because they served the Landlords... It's all so perfect, plus I refuse to believe a race so comical can be so old...

[Anonymoose]

Specifically, they have a move called Calamitous Wind.

That's an interesting catch. Do you assume the chances of it being a coincidental use of the term are fairly low? Only English uses the term Calamity to refer to the peak of an umbral era, but three-of-four specifically use the word "calamity" here. (German just calls it Merciless, and never uses the term Ungnädiger again.) French doesn't use the word Calamiteux elsewhere, though it does call the seventh Fléau a calamité a couple of times, though again, it also calls several other unfortunate events by that name. If it were meant to be taken as a hint, would it not be Wind Katastrophe? Vent Fléau? Plus the attack name was lifted from FFXI.

Surely, as is currently the case in the Churning Mists, his hoard would have assisted in the complete destruction of the Landlords civilization there

I should think most of the dragons there would have taken some revenge on any Landlord structures. But what about the rest of the floating continent? Would it have been an accident that the entire thing was shattered over what looks to be a fairly local conflict? It's massive - the size of the entire north of Eorzea - yet we've never seen the same kinds of ruins in, for example, the Sea of Clouds, right? Even in the Mists, they didn't go out of their way to obliterate very much of it; to this day, it's in perfectly recognizable ruin. Speaking of the ruins, why would the Dravanian / Ishgardian culture have built so many bridges if the land wasn't shattered yet? Zenith, the Rookery, Asah, etc. all have bridges that look designed to span the same broken structures that exist today.

If they made note of one Calamity though, why not the rest?

Conflict between man and dragon is a depressingly common theme in the Umbral Eras.
At least (so far) the War of the Magi is evidence that it's not exclusive.

Plus the whole mix up with the Twelve, and Thordan and his Knights Twelve is just too perfect... Moghome took a Chieftain, because they served the Skylords, the Twelveswood took a King, because they served the Landlords... It's all so perfect

Didn't they say that Moggle was a Chieftain, too? As pertains to the rest, with an oral history, it's really hard to tell which stories are how old, so I'm having a hard time really shooting anything completely down. The part that bothers me the most is still that I can't find any evidence of moogles in Eorzea before they hooked up with Gridania.

I still refuse to accept Moghome as being that old

For any particular reason? There aren't any structures around that seem very old, but, to be fair, the moogles aren't particularly interested in building anything unless it'll make someone else happy. They sleep in flowerbeds and take shelter amongst the boughs and glamour themselves invisible to avoid pretty much all the things. They eat specific nuts from a specific tree they cultivate, and seem to have entirely oral histories. What could be left in their wake to date them?

From another angle, does moogles living on the flying continent necessitate that they always lived in the same settlement?

I refuse to believe they remember the first era, but not subsequent ones...

Because Occam's Razor suggests to conflate the Age of the Gods with the Source; when Hydaelyn and Zodiark were united and (allegedly) mortal life did not exist? And that the First Umbral Era was thus their separation and no mortal memory of it should exist, either? That's probably some of the strongest evidence, imho. I'm incredibly hesitant to move away from that assumption, as well ... though there is room to. A lot of the mythology lines up nicer if you assume there's a prehistorical era before the First Umbral; that the first attempt at Life included gods and it turned out to be a bad idea. But talk about the tallest house of cards in XIV...

EDIT: Pretty sure I read you wrong here;that you meant the moogles mention ONLY C1 but not C2-7. But the windy misfortune that led to the division of the moogles seems like the first thing you'd discuss with a moogle from the other clan; were the others ever relevant to discourse?

Now that you mention it, though, the SkyMogs might not have much to remember. The Sea of Clouds seems to hover above the cumulonimbus blanket, so perhaps not much reason to worry about lightning. Probably would have missed the earthquake entirely. Flood wouldn't have caused much concern up here. The extreme heat of the Third Umbral and perhaps the extreme cold of the Fifth might have posed some problems ... but did they have much to say about Dalamud, either? (Again, I don't recall at the moment, lol.)

Maybe we'll one day hear about the Great Kupo Nut Drought 6,000 years ago.

I refuse to believe a race so comical can be so old...

Whaaat? Most hints suggest that the First Umbral hit, what, 20,000 years ago, tops?
That's 20% of how long modern platypodes have been around. Platypi are hilarious.

[Nalien]

I imagine I mostly just don't want the headache of trying to fit another group in around the Allag... Midgardsormr alone is bad enough, and you can throw the Dravanian siblings under that bus as well, possibly the Elementals as well... Moogles too? OK, they have natural stealth capabilities, but given how easily we bump into them, I have a hard time believing the Allag just never saw them, and if the Allag found out about them... I have a hard time believing they wouldn't be interested in them... Just think of the military applications those stealth abilities could provide... They'd have been experimented on at some point (and while we're touching on Allag and their Chimeras... Mole Bats...), though perhaps that was just the unfortunate fate of some other clan... Sigh, so many questions that could just be answered by asking a dragon...

Didn't they say that Moggle was a Chieftain, too? As pertains to the rest, with an oral history, it's really hard to tell which stories are how old, so I'm having a hard time really shooting anything completely down.

Hmm, I could perhaps explain it better... The fact that their history is oral is why we get King Moggle Mog XII, not Chieftain Moggle Mog XII; The Twelveswood Moogles remember serving King Thordan and having a leader called Moggle Mog XII, and over the years that kinda merges, giving us King Moggle Mog XII... I guess it's not a massive leap between Chieftain and King, but where else do we have Kings in Eorzea? Ala Mhigo is the only place I can think of off the top of my head, and I doubt the Moogles adopted a fancy for things regal from the hostile nation to the East... Always possible they picked up the idea from Amdapor, or some forgotten nation, I guess...

I imagine such a situation would be easily facilitated by the Eorzeans belief in the Twelve though... Focus gets drawn to the Twelve they served, since it's a common point in both legends, but there was no King of the Twelve, so he just falls to the side as the legend of the Twelve merges with the Moogles legend... They still remember a King in their legend though, so obviously their leader must have been the King, right? Thus, Chieftain Moggle Mog XII becomes King Moggle Mog XII.

I should think most of the dragons there would have taken some revenge on any Landlord structures. But what about the rest of the floating continent? Would it have been an accident that the entire thing was shattered over what looks to be a fairly local conflict? It's massive - the size of the entire north of Eorzea - yet we've never seen the same kinds of ruins in, for example, the Sea of Clouds, right? Even in the Mists, they didn't go out of their way to obliterate very much of it; to this day, it's in perfectly recognizable ruin. Speaking of the ruins, why would the Dravanian / Ishgardian culture have built so many bridges if the land wasn't shattered yet? Zenith, the Rookery, Asah, etc. all have bridges that look designed to span the same broken structures that exist today.

Well, we can't be sure how complete the Churning Mists used to look... Roads around the place seem to indicate some pretty serious shifts though, Weston Waters, Sothton Walls, and Easton Eyes all seem to have shifted pretty significantly... Even just looking at the map, you can see quite clear roads, and I don't think they had bridges connecting them once upon a time... No real way of telling how many more places like that have just been knocked out of the sky completely... I imagine very little would remain if the land gave way... Building on floating rocks strikes me as more foolish than building on sand...

Also, where does the claim for the size of the floating continent come from? If it's historic, it is entirely possible that it was eroded away over years anyway, one massive Calamity shreds it, then smaller events over the eras (like the Nidhogg and Bismarck) help erode it further... If it's from the Moogles themselves... Well, are they the most reliable source? Asah exists as a rest stop for them because the trip from Moghome to Zenith is too long for them... Most things are massive, to a Moogle...

Again, I could see this resulting from a similar misunderstanding that gave us King Moggle Mog XII and had them serving the Twelve; They served Twelve Knights on a large floating island, the Knights leave (some die fighting Nidhogg, rest leave for Ishgard), Nidhoggs Hoard readies Calamitous Wind (which is probably nothing, was just a "Huh, that's interesting" moment that sent me back here), Moogles leave for the surface. Meet Eorzeans, who have a legend of the Twelve, leaving because of a war, and a massive floating continent... There are a lot of similarities in these events, so the Moogles just accept the Eorzea legend... They must have come from the floating continent, after all it was very tiring for them to travel around up there!

I suppose the biggest flaw with that is that dates may no match... If the Moogle exodus was 1,000 years ago, that doesn't leave a great deal of room for any confusion, depending on how the relationship between the Moogles and Gridania was at the time... There can't really be much confusion if one side is recalling events form living memory, while the other from ancient history...

EDIT: Pretty sure I read you wrong here;that you meant the moogles mention ONLY C1 but not C2-7. But the windy misfortune that led to the division of the moogles seems like the first thing you'd discuss with a moogle from the other clan; were the others ever relevant to discourse?

Yeah, I only brought it up because your mention of the Second Umbral Era involved volcanic activity, and given Moghomes proximity to the largest volcano around? I figure that kinda event is something to remember... Perhaps not relevant to the discussion they were having, but it could be? I believe they mentioned that they didn't think anyone survived the trip to the surface? All the Calamities that happened since would certainly help push one to that conclusion... You have a sudden exodus, then a few hundred years pass by, you wonder how your distant relatives are doing, then HOLY CRAP! Fire is shooting up from the surface?! Yep, they didn't make it...

but did they have much to say about Dalamud, either? (Again, I don't recall at the moment, lol.)

I kinda go back on forth on this... Yes the Churning Mists is pretty much protected up in the sky, but then the developers made (a confusing) point of putting pieces of Dalamud up in the Aery, to "clearly" indicate that the Calamity reached even there (yet apparently missed the rest of Dravania, and the Sea of Cloud, and didn't cause anything like the corrupt crystals we see in the rest of Eorzea...), I guess they're not going to bring up events from history though, if they're not going to mention the Calamity within living memory that apparently did reach them... I still have no idea how the Aery is still there if a chunk of Dalamud flew into it...

It's also something that doesn't apply to the Twelveswood clan... They'd have been on the surface for every war and disaster... Meanwhile, Good King Moggle Mog XII has only just seemingly come into existence... They didn't turn to that legend for protection during the other Umbral Eras? OK, we might not have a record of it, but nor did the Moogles... You'd think the second coming of the King would be an addendum on his legend; "Oh yeah, and he also punched Xandes in the throat that one time!"

I suppose I wouldn't be so against the idea if there was some supporting lore like that... All we really have is an exodus that could align with the First Era, or IMO the start of the Dragonsong War... From a narrative perspective, I just find the later much more interesting. The former could be just as interesting, but it would need to be greatly expanded upon... If they're that old, you need to do something with that age... Why not have the Twelveswood Moogles provide lore on Odin, for example? If they were around back then, they could have had their own myths around Urth's Fount that we could have explored in Odin's quest... That's interesting, that does something with the fact that they've been here since forever...

[Corvinoobus]

The last time I checked, they actually hadn't made the change yet, lol.

I'm pretty sure I had a good reason for forgetting about this until now. Probably something voice-work related. Yeah, that sounds like a good enough excuse...

"But one day, all creation was consumed by a raging tempest that spanned the whole of the heavens, and the once-great continent was smashed into countless smaller ones."

And with that, I bid you carry on!

[Anonymoose]

Thanks for the update (and a peek at the change)!

And bid me carry on, do you? Might there be something to suss out, afterall!? <swells with false hopes> Back to the spreadsheets and powerpoints we go! (After The Story So Far... is caught up.) The new model is, so far, uh ... Rube Goldberg-esque. Certainly wrong. But it puts Ice and Astral where they belong, according to the Dusty Tomes, and predicts things accurately despite shifting some of it down (by Nostradamus standards, anyway. Nostradamoose...)

But back to theorywork.

"All Creation" and the "whole of the heavens" seems to be a bigger storm than even Nidhogg's forces could make (granted, Nalien, I've been trying harder to get your interpretation to be more specific rather than trying to prove it wrong, which I can't, and would surely tempt the smiting of Nymeia, anyway).

Then again, though, this is a moogle telling the tale. Not exactly known for their conservative estimates, kupo.

[Ametrine]

I'm curious.
When you refer to the "dusty tomes," are you refering to an actual physical/digital catalogue of information, or is that just a pet nickname for the text data on 1.0 to current?

If it's the former, I would love to look at it!

[Ramen]

on 1.0 Thaumaturge Guild front desk, there used to be a clickable item called "dusty tomes"

from someone's youtube video:


inside have lots section about these eras, and these hmm cycle things Prof. Moose listed at first post water > earth > lightning

at 1.0, these elements play a bigger roles than 2.0 3.0, so that's why Thaumaturge needs to know these...

[Anonymoose]

on 1.0 Thaumaturge Guild front desk, there used to be a clickable item called "dusty tomes"

Indeed! The Dusty Tomes were essentially a bundle of other menus. Their contents have been sneaked into other places, but are:

Essences & Permutations - A Treatise of the Six Elements

Chapter I - The Six Nativities and Myriad Creation

The spark of Lightning ignites when it strikes, and thus Fire is born.
The heat of Fire renders to ash all that it touches, and thus earth is born.
The density of Earth shuns Sun and harbors cold, and thus Ice is born.
The armor of Ice melts away, and thus water is born.
The moistness of Water mists and rises, and thus Wind is born.
The gusts and sighs of Wind gather the clouds, and thus Lightning is born.

Chapter II - The Three Conquests, Boundless and Unwavering

Earth grounds Lightning.
Water erodes Earth.
Lightning boils Water.

Chapter III - The Three Submissions, Timeless and Unending

Fire is extinguished by Wind.
Ice is melted by Fire.
Wind is obstructed by Ice.

Chapter IV - Dynamic Opposites & the Bifurcation of Polarity

The six elements are manifest in all things great and small, and their polarity deriveth from the Astral heavens above and the Umbral depths below.

The Five Ages - An Eorzean Chronology

The Preface

Penned by Lewphon of Sharlayan, master theologian and astrologist, in the Year 233 of the Sixth Astral Era, to weave together the disparate histories of the nations of Eorzea with a common thread - the thread of time. For through its inevitable march the hours turn into Suns, and they into Moons, and they into Years. And from the Years come the Ages of Man. And ever eclipsing those is the eternity of Gods.

Chapter 1 - The Suns

By the unit of a sole Sun we mean that period which lasts for the duration of four cycles of the six elemental hours - those of Ice, Water, Wind, Lightning, Fire, and Earth. And so is the sun twenty hours and four, and so shall it ever be.

Chapter 2 - The Moons

The life of a single Moon spans four cycles of eight Suns, and is thus the sum of thirty and two. The eight deriveth from the elements six, Ice, Water, Wind, Lightning, Fire, and Earth, and the polarities two, Astral and Umbral.

Chapter 3 - The Years

The Year is made when the Moon goeth round the two Astral and Umbral poles, fluctuating between the six elements, and that in turn. In this, the Year can be said to be the length of twelve Moons. The first and second Moons of the Year are the first astral and first Umbral, and together they share affinity with Ice. On their watch, all is frozen, and breath of life sloweth to near silence beneath. The second Astral and second Umbral Moons come third and fourth in turn, and they are the Water of the melting Ice, and with their flowing slaketh the thirst of life again. Fifth and sixth are the third Astral and third Umbral Moons, and the Wind bloweth over the Water, carrying its heavenly boons near and far. The fourth pairing of Astral and Umbral Moons come six and seven. when the heavens rageth with the furies of Lightning and sendeth them below with godly terror to test the faith of men. The ninth and tenth Moons are the Fifth Astral and Umbral, as the Lightning turns to Fire, and it charreth growing life with the colors of its flames, bleeding blade and leaf with brilliant ues of crimson and scarlet. Year's end eometh in the eleventh and twelfth Moons, the sixth Astral and sixth Umbral, in which the Earth consumes all, for out of the ground we are taken for the dust we are, and to the dust we shall return.

Chapter 4 - Of Man

The wisdom of the Twelve saw fit to grant man with the cycle of years, and in turn the reverence of man bound them to his gods - the Year of the Navigator, of the Wanderer, of the Builder, of the Destroyer, of the Warden, of the Traders, of the Matron, of the Keeper, of the Fury, of the Lover, of the Scholar, and of the Spinner. The turning of these Years twelve is a sacred thing, and together they comprise one epoch of man, by which the histories of his endeavor are measured.

Chapter 5 - Of Gods

The constancy and eternity of time derive from the pulse and breath of the Twelve. And by their divine will the brilliance of the Astral Eras which see man flourish and prosper, and the shadows of the Umbral Eras which see man falter and doubt, are visited upon him in equal, and neither the greatest good nor the greatest evil may escape their purview. Since the peace among the Twelve was broken and life was created to wage their wars, six cycles of the Eras have come to pass in keeping with the elemental order. The Sixth Umbral Era belonged to the waters, as heavy rains fell and the seas rose high, submerging and cleansing all in a great deluge. With time the waters receded, ushering in the present Sixth Astral Era, during which man has again rebuilt his halls and tilled his lands. Naught save the ken of the Twelve themselves knoweth when the Seventh Umbral Era shall come and end our days. The sole certainty what resides within man is the selfsame as it has ever been - ours is the power to make of our Era what we might.

When I say something "fits with the Dusty Tomes", it's just shorthand for "Wow, it sure is weird that all other cycles start with Ice, and Astral comes before Umbral, but the eras start with Wind and Umbral. I wonder if it can be made to work another way, with the inconsistency being 'a mistake of man'".

[Nalien]

"All Creation" and the "whole of the heavens" seems to be a bigger storm than even Nidhogg's forces could make (granted, Nalien, I've been trying harder to get your interpretation to be more specific rather than trying to prove it wrong, which I can't, and would surely tempt the smiting of Nymeia, anyway).

Honestly, there's not all that much to it... Just that the Twelveswood moogles essentially muddled up their history upon reaching the surface. They came down having served the twelve landlords and their king, people on the surface worshiped the Twelve, that created a misunderstanding that warped their history... Beyond that it's just personal preference, I find that kind of narrative much more appealing, the best I can come up with for them essentially being as old as time, is that they make a nice parallel to the dravanians... Even that's not perfect though, given dragons are functionally immortal while moogles (presumably) die like the rest of us... Still, they'd both be of similar age culturally, and while dravanians have grown old and bitter in their seclusion, moogles are playful and much more welcoming of man... Honestly, either of those works to support the main story, a parallel to the dravanians for obvious reasons, but the story also involves a lot of cases of history being twisted... It would mirror something like the story surrounding Shiva quite nicely, I think, though presumably for more innocent reasons...

Hopefully upcoming quests can shed some light on pre-history, or we can pray harder and offer up our wallets in the hope of summoning a Lore tome for answers... Having some indication of pre-Sixth Era moogles kicking around would pretty definitively shoot down my current interpretation...

Then again, though, this is a moogle telling the tale. Not exactly known for their conservative estimates, kupo.

That's what I'm thinking... What constitutes "all creation" to a moogle? If they live in the Churning Mists and never leave, how do they know whether something is localized or not? They live in their own little bubble, I'm incline to doubt their telling of events somewhat... I mean, either way the Moghome clan definitely served the Zenith civilization, yet they've not kept a terribly good record of that history... That supports either idea though, it's reasoning for them to completely forget about the Allag, and it's reason for them to easily have mixed up their own history with Eorzean history, to turn the Twelve they served in the sky from knights, to Gods...

[Zohar_Lahar]

I wonder if the First Umbral Era was the banishing of Zodiark. Jettisoning a moon from the surface to orbit would probably create lots of wind.