Yoshida' stance on PL and why it is less than ideal.

[Travesty]

The only prerequisite of an RPG is that the player be able to develop and progress in some way, fashion, or form.

Sorry, but no. That is simply wrong. If that were the case, nearly every game would be an RPG. There are almost no games, except arcade fighters, where there is zero progression of the role you're taking. Even scrolling shooters have progression.

There seems to be this misconception that leveling has to be the systematic grinding of enemies for incessant hours upon end. That is not the case at all. In FFXIV, currently, it might be the case, but that is because the game is poorly designed right now, not because that's the way it has to be. What players need to be encouraging SE to do instead of limiting the role that leveling plays in what is supposed to be an RPG, is to develop content that changes leveling from the grinding of mobs to an experience players want to have. They can do that through side quests, more frequent dungeons, more story missions, or even a revamp of battle and enemies that makes killing them less repetitive. All of these are better solutions than creating a system in an RPG where leveling largely falls by the wayside.

[Mishakai]

I will argue one point of the OP, got too much to do at work today to reply to the whole thing.

About players being able to "skip the economy til level 50". I see that as a great thing, and here is why.

I have gone from level 30 to level 34 since the 9th, casually doing leve quests and other side quests. The issue however IS the economy. There seem to be plenty of crafters out there, yet nobody is making the new gear for the mid ranges. So, exactly what am I skipping here?? All the crafters are making gear for lvl45+, I have yet to see a set of steel plated jackboots on Mysidia for sale (and since nobody obviously knows what they are, they are the "new" level 31 greaves for disciples of war. Not a single pair.. nowhere... Even asked around Ul'dah and couldn't find anybody to take the time to make me a pair.

So the point is.. There is NO MIDLEVEL ECONOMY TO SKIP.

[Travesty]

I will argue one point of the OP, got too much to do at work today to reply to the whole thing.

About players being able to "skip the economy til level 50". I see that as a great thing, and here is why.

I have gone from level 30 to level 34 since the 9th, casually doing leve quests and other side quests. The issue however IS the economy. There seem to be plenty of crafters out there, yet nobody is making the new gear for the mid ranges. So, exactly what am I skipping here?? All the crafters are making gear for lvl45+, I have yet to see a set of steel plated jackboots on Mysidia for sale (and since nobody obviously knows what they are, they are the "new" level 31 greaves for disciples of war. Not a single pair.. nowhere... Even asked around Ul'dah and couldn't find anybody to take the time to make me a pair.

So the point is.. There is NO MIDLEVEL ECONOMY TO SKIP.

You may be right about the fact that there's really no low level economy, but the problem with the new system is that instead of fixing the game economy, they're just letting you skip it if you get PLd. That means it's still broken. What they could have done instead, for example, is put in place a capped level 35ish raid with lucrative rewards. That all of a sudden wuld have resulted in a flood of the new level 30ish gear appearing on the markets because there would be demand. That's just 1 example.

They need to be fixing the broken things. Just letting people skip them is poor design and ultimately only leads to more problems.

[Mishakai]

You may be right about the fact that there's really no low level economy, but the problem with the new system is that instead of fixing the game economy, they're just letting you skip it if you get PLd. That means it's still broken. What they could have done instead, for example, is put in place a capped level 35ish raid with lucrative rewards. That all of a sudden wuld have resulted in a flood of the new level 30ish gear appearing on the markets because there would be demand. That's just 1 example.

They need to be fixing the broken things. Just letting people skip them is poor design and ultimately only leads to more problems.

Well, yes you have a point. If there was stuff to skip, then skipping it would be bad. However, there really isn't a whole lot going on at the mid levels. There is some decent lower level stuff now with Shposhae, and the level 50 content is starting to show up, yet there is still a rather large gap in the mid ranges. Part of the issue now is most people who have jobs in the mid ranges, also have a capped job.

I look at it this way..

Shposhae = love for lower levels.
Ifrit + Beast strongholds = love for high levels
Power levelling = love for mid levels.

[ViolentDjango]

Sorry, but no. That is simply wrong. If that were the case, nearly every game would be an RPG. There are almost no games, except arcade fighters, where there is zero progression of the role you're taking. Even scrolling shooters have progression.

There seems to be this misconception that leveling has to be the systematic grinding of enemies for incessant hours upon end. That is not the case at all. In FFXIV, currently, it might be the case, but that is because the game is poorly designed right now, not because that's the way it has to be. What players need to be encouraging SE to do instead of limiting the role that leveling plays in what is supposed to be an RPG, is to develop content that changes leveling from the grinding of mobs to an experience players want to have. They can do that through side quests, more frequent dungeons, more story missions, or even a revamp of battle and enemies that makes killing them less repetitive. All of these are better solutions than creating a system in an RPG where leveling largely falls by the wayside.

Every RPG's leveling system is a pacing system... Its a system specifically designed to make you do a specific thing a specific number of times to give you specific rewards and keep you involved in the game until a certain point. Its a design to circumvent that you can't put a fluid story and persist world into a cluster of zones, so rather than having you walk along a specifically guided path they generate a topography outline for skill benchmarks that force you to be able to do certain things by the time you get to certain places.

Hence, the leveling system.

You can take any modern or classic RPG's world map and generate a radial gradient representing the level you're supposed to be when you get to places, then draw a line through the story's progression. and see a clear, steady increase in the levels required.

The leveling system exists to allow players a sense of freedom while simultaneously controlling their decision making. Its the same thing its used for in MMOs. Leveling systems are specifically designed to force you to be in a certain place for a specific amount of time, and the experience curve is designed so that the development team can map out the exact amount of time and effort a player will have to exert to reach level cap.

Leveling systems were created because they were necessary to achieve what we consider to be the classic RPG -- but plenty of modern RPGs prove that it is in no way necessary to achieve a potent, quality experience. The Elder Scrolls series is a good example -- It possesses a leveling system, but conceivably you can completely remove it from the game and circumvent the the entire skill level mechanic with a more prowess demanding system and still end up with almost the exact same quality of experience. The game would -still- be an RPG.

Yes. By my definition most games become RPGs because all games are role-playing games. You're assuming the control of a character in a fictional setting. The reason why leveling exists specifically in the "RPG" we know of is that it was the first instance of allowing players conceivably feelings of exploration -- levels allowed developers to dynamically design non-linear worlds without fearing a player stumbling upon the final boss accidentally. This is what made games like Zelda so revolutionary -- Zelda fought for a long time to properly claim its rightful title of "Action RPG" because people felt that leveling was a key component of the classic RPG -- its not. The story and freedom are. The ability to develop and define you character are. Action-Adventure, Action RPG, and RPG games all share this attribute are are effective all "RPGs" in the same sense we mean when we say MMORPG. The different is, the closer you get to the Action side, the more linear things tend to become because developers don't like awarding players too much freedom due to avoid potential problems with story development.

All of that aside, FFXIV is not an exception to the mundane nature of leveling systems -- its right in line with the current standard that many games refuse to evacuate. Like I keep saying, its not a bad thing, but it is [NOT] needed. Its just something we've come to expect and identify with -- but accepting that its just a status quo, and not a necessity, is the first step to convincing development teams to aspire for something more organic and universally substantial.

But sure, keep over complicating things.

No one's talking about "creating a system in an RPG where leveling largely falls by the wayside." Many people who are "fighting for PL'ing" just don't see what the big deal is because its NOT A BIG DEAL. Leveling isn't a necessity, it doesn't add anything to the story nor the overall experience unless you LIKE LEVELING. In which case, you're free to invest your time in doing so. But you shouldn't feel you're obligated to force your style of play on other people -- options are significantly better than favoritism to retro systems.

And this is coming from someone who enjoys leveling. The Devs will fix whatever they feel they need to fix, and that's all there is to it.

[yukikaze_yanagi]

One: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ish%29/page152 last post
two :http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ish%29/page154 first one

Enjoy your Pl madness. It last short

[ViolentDjango]

One: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ish%29/page152 last post
two :http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ish%29/page154 first one

Enjoy your Pl madness. It last short

No shit. We've been saying that for several pages -- they already said they were going to make modifications to put things in line with their views -- you folks just won't let up with you end of the world rants...

I think people panicked less over Y2K...

[FNXIV]

One: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ish%29/page152 last post
two :http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ish%29/page154 first one

Enjoy your Pl madness. It last short

Thank you mam or sir.

[Denmo]

No shit. We've been saying that for several pages -- they already said they were going to make modifications to put things in line with their views -- you folks just won't let up with you end of the world rants...

I think people panicked less over Y2K...

What really got to me was apparent disillusionment of players who wanted to think that the new EXP rates were the way the game was going to stay, and how people like me were "spoiling their fun."

Get it while you can, and have fun being bored when there's no high level content left for you to play.

[Travesty]

Django, I'm not gonna reply to much of what you wrote, because I lack the time, energy, or motivation, and because we now know this issue is going to be resolved. That said I am gonna reply to one point.

This:

Yes. By my definition most games become RPGs because all games are role-playing games.

Is just a really dumb position to take. If that's your definition of RPG, it's too wide-ranging to even argue against, which is probably how you want it anyway. I think 95% of the rest of the gaming community would disagree since you're essentially saying no RPG genre exists. Your argument is that the RPG genre should just be "Games." My argument back to you would be that just because RPG might be a poor label for the genre because "role playing" is such an amorphous term doesn't mean the genre itself lacks definition. Historically, of the games people consider RPGs, you will find extremely few if any that don't have some kind of numerical leveling system. Most people consider Zelda an adventure game, not an RPG, by the way.