Something need to be done in how tanks acquiring Provoke

[FeliAiko]

Don't really see this as a problem. Provoke is only used for raiding. If that player wants to raid, pretty sure they would have obtained all their cross class skills

It's not just Savage content that's been subject to containing Tank swap mechanics. Ultima HM, Titan Ex, Bismark Ex, Nidhogg Ex... just to name a few.

[bass9020]

It's not just Savage content that's been subject to containing Tank swap mechanics. Ultima HM, Titan Ex, Bismark Ex, Nidhogg Ex... just to name a few.

Thats still content where you know beforehand what you need. ANY job should have all appropriate cross class skills and if you don't well dont be surprised if your kicked

[Jijifli]

IMO, if a game requires you to do that, it's badly designed. I don't think people should learn to spoil themselves in advance via wikis and guides "the hard way", but rather that people should be provided all the tools they "need" on the way. External information IMO should be the domain of optional things - secret cutscenes and other such goodies.

A game wanting you to actually have information on your class is badly designed?

So how about the bosses just lay down and give you loot, since clearly we're too lazy to figure out how to not be a crap tank. Hint, maybe a tank that actually doesn't want to drive a party up the wall will make sure they are set instead of going in without Provoke, or worse, in stuff like piety because "more flashes."

[MaeIsMean]

A game wanting you to actually have information on your class is badly designed?

So how about the bosses just lay down and give you loot, since clearly we're too lazy to figure out how to not be a crap tank. Hint, maybe a tank that actually doesn't want to drive a party up the wall will make sure they are set instead of going in without Provoke, or worse, in stuff like piety because "more flashes."

Way to totally twist what she said. It's more like "The game should better explain the important parts of playing the game WITHIN the game. Things like fine tuning your dps rotation and what stats to focus on for raiding are things that can be referenced outside of game." If provoke is so NECESSARY to all tanks, then it should either be explained better, highlighted better, or just plain offered to every tank. No one is asking the game to be made easier, just for REALLY important things, it should be made clear it's REALLY important, instead of a "fun way to personalize your job/class" like it is now.

[MeiUshu]

Don't really see this as a problem. Provoke is only used for raiding. If that player wants to raid, pretty sure they would have obtained all their cross class skills

er no, not only.

[LineageRazor]

Thats still content where you know beforehand what you need. ANY job should have all appropriate cross class skills and if you don't well dont be surprised if your kicked

Is it really content where you know beforehand what you need? I don't remember seeing, "Oh, Tanks, don't forget to bring Provoke!" in the quest description for Ultima's Ballad, and a lot of players dive into that as soon as they clear the Praetorium. In fact, that's probably the number one instance where you're likely to run into a tank that doesn't have Provoke, and had no idea it was something they could even get, let alone need.

People WILDLY overestimate the likelihood that people realize they're expected to do any kind of research outside of the game. It might seem like obvious common sense to anyone reading this thread - but that's just it. You're reading this thread. You're already accustomed to looking stuff up online. Insisting that everyone in this game should just KNOW this stuff are being arrogant, in much the same way that middle- or upper-class folks muse that poor people should just stop being poor already.

In single-player games, folks may look things up online, but they aren't expected to and many deliberately avoid doing so because they want to figure stuff out on their own. When a person used to single-player games first plays an MMO, they will have the same mindset. They won't understand at first that there may be important things that the game doesn't tell them, and unless friends online clue them in ahead of time they won't even know there's a question they're supposed to ask.

Even the notion that, "Hey, you can cross-class skills, obviously you should get access to every possible cross-class skill!" is far from universally understood. The vast majority of cross-class skills, you can do just fine in endgame without. I ran into a WHM without Eye-for-an-Eye in Alex 5 Savage the other day, for example, and missing that skill is very unlikely to make-or-break a run. Provoke is different - and in no place in the game, is it pointed out that Provoke is different.

[Slam01]

Well I'm glad I saw this thread, i haven't done anything endgame yet and just finished the main story but I thought provoke was useless before seeing this and doing my research. I strictly play games without hints or guides but seeing as tho this is my first mmo I'm starting to realize more and more that this won't be possible in this game

Either way thanks for the info in this thread

[Mirateski]

For those talking about how FC should help, my FC told me not to level anything other than the requirement for my job stone until I hit max level, because of the armoury bonus. I was actually laughed at for trying to get whm to 34 so my sch could have stoneskin before I hit lv50. I also didn't realise that adloquium adds the barrier even if you aren't healing actual damage until I was like lv54 and someone explained it to me, because the tooltip was confusing in its wording.

The thing is, a game with a specific mechanic involved needs to make sure that the people who are required by that mechanic have all the skills required to complete it before they queue. Even just a warning box with "you must have provoke in order to successfully complete this duty" when a tank without it queues. (Hell, even for pld - I literally never had to use voke before I went into Midas. Like never. And I MAIN paladin.) It doesn't matter if you think someone who doesn't have voke at that level is lazy/rubbish/needs to stop being entitled or whatever - the game STILL NEEDS TO TELL THEM that if they queue up for this duty (for like an hour, in the case of lv50 ex primals) as they are, it will beliterally imcompletable. It's unfair to the tank and it's unfair to the other 7 people otherwise.

I mean, I'm also kinda of the opinion that you shouldn't be allowed to queue for dungeons without having done all the job quests up to that point too, especially in lv30+ content. Seeing tanks without their hate stance or healers without key parts of their toolkit is just painful, but the game doesn't force you to do job quests so people might well think it's better to wait until they're a higher level when it's easier to complete them. (I know I did that with gatherers and crafters, after all).

[MaeIsMean]

I mean, I'm also kinda of the opinion that you shouldn't be allowed to queue for dungeons without having done all the job quests up to that point too, especially in lv30+ content. Seeing tanks without their hate stance or healers without key parts of their toolkit is just painful, but the game doesn't force you to do job quests so people might well think it's better to wait until they're a higher level when it's easier to complete them. (I know I did that with gatherers and crafters, after all).

This I can get behind. The first time I played scholar, I was lvl 60 thanks to my 60 SMN. I also had good enough gear (at the time) for expert roulette thanks to my 60 WHM. But I hadn't done a single scholar quest aside from the one that let me equip the scholar soulstone. I actually did a level 60 zone with zero scholar abilities, and no one died. But it was difficult, and I was like "Damn, this is a crappy healer, there's like no special thing to it." Then I went to the class NPC and saw I had quests from level 35.... oops. Next dungeon was much easier and healing was much more enjoyable

[bass9020]

This I can get behind. The first time I played scholar, I was lvl 60 thanks to my 60 SMN. I also had good enough gear (at the time) for expert roulette thanks to my 60 WHM. But I hadn't done a single scholar quest aside from the one that let me equip the scholar soulstone. I actually did a level 60 zone with zero scholar abilities, and no one died. But it was difficult, and I was like "Damn, this is a crappy healer, there's like no special thing to it." Then I went to the class NPC and saw I had quests from level 35.... oops. Next dungeon was much easier and healing was much more enjoyable

Why would you willing put 3 other players through that? Even if no one died thats pretty crappy. Just saying.