Do YOU think we'll get a new Tank and/or Healer in 4.0? And vice versa.

[Shippuu]

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The idea that they have to add jobs to "balance" things based on main Stat is preposterous. Primarily for the sole reason that the next jobs added after that will merely throw it off balanced. So there's absolutely now point in deciding what jobs to add based on that premise.

When 2.0 launched it was 2 vit, 2 str, 1 dex, 2 int, and 2 mnd. Then they added ninja which you could argue "balanced" things for 2 for each role. But then HW came along and added a third dex, mnd, and vit job. Thus unbalancing things again, and so on and so forth. There is no magic rule that says there has to be some balanced numher of jobs for anything.

Also, adding only dps (and multiple at that) in an expansion for a trinity based mmo is a ridiculously bad idea for the longevity and health of the game. We all saw what happened when they added ninja. The game could certainly benefit from more tank and Healer jobs, far more than it'll benefit from simply more dps jobs.

[Zojha]

The game could certainly benefit from more tank and Healer jobs, far more than it'll benefit from simply more dps jobs.

If and only if...that actually correlates with the amount of people actively playing tank/healer in the duties where they are needed.

Adding a tank only increases the tank population in the long run if the gameplay of that tank is more enjoyable to a person not already playing a tank than all alternative jobs, both healers and DPS alike. The same goes for DPS and healers. Otherwise, the best/worst that happens is a transient effect - people level the new tank for a bit (via FATEs, dungeons or palace of the dead), queue times might even go down for a while, then return to normal as people ditch the new job at endgame.

[AlphaFox]

I can't speak for everyone but if someone were to only play DPS, a new Healer/Tank can entice that player to try and they may actually grow to love it, thus willing to learn the others or give them a 2nd shot. I don't feel I am alone in this but that is how it happened for me on DRK. I refused to tank, I hated it but the idea of DRK grew on me and now I have no issue tanking and even raided as MT for my group for months. I still get nervous but not to the point of straight out refusing. However we just have to face that some people are stubborn, they could add 10 new classes but if they are all Tank/Healer they will never budge from DPS. Personally, I don't mind either role so RDM, DNC, GEO, whatever class you want to make you can throw in any position and I'll gladly give it a shot.

With that in mind though DPS is favorite and adding only DPS will explode the wait times if not paired with a new Tank/Healer.

[Shippuu]

Tenzen, Ayame and Auron are certainly not tanks.

Auron, not a tank? Really? So ignoring the fact Auron is technically not a samurai (he is referred to as a Warrior Monk and is never classed as a samurai). He most certainly has tank elements. His story alone places him as a literal Guardian. He is very strong in the defensive department and his sphere grid grants him skills such as:

Guard: Allows character to take damage for an ally.
Sentinel: Allows character to guard allies while in defensive stance.

These skills are unique to his section of the sphere grid meaning only he can learn them initially by default. So it's funny you'd try to use him as an example of a samurai who isn't a tank when he's got some of the most obvious and very tank - like abilities.

As for Tenzen and Ayame, you'd be hard pressed to find any important characters in FFXI that would be considered tanks. I would point out Tenzen is on a mission to protect others, is considered the Guardian of Phoenix, and the origins of the name Tenzen come from the Tibetan name Tenzin which means Defender of the Faith.

[Shippuu]

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Even if adding them only provides a temporary boost that is still a very valid reason to add them. If you want a positive boost of things such a queue times the best time to have that is at the launch of your expansions. There are plenty of benefits such as luring potential players to a role they've never tried, there have been plenty of people who were introduced to tanking and found they liked it because of Dark Knight. Then there's the population of existing tanks who would then be leveling another tank through dungeons/other content etc. Putting them back into those queues once again providing more queues for everyone else.

It's also a good idea to encourage the tank population to stay in the game, not giving them variety and fresh new things is a good way to drive them to other roles (if only dps get Shiney new jobs) or to leave the game. These are negative things you generally want to avoid if you want your trinity MMO to last.


When you have a problem like a shortage of tanks you don't sit there and just accept it as an inevitability. You should continue to do things to try and alleviate the problem and put simply, adding only dps does the opposite of trying to solve the issue.

[Zojha]

When you have a problem like a shortage of tanks you don't sit there and just accept it as an inevitability.

Indeed - and the first thing that comes to mind is changing how tanks play in general.

If you look at the Eorzean Censi SE provided, you'll have a hard time seeing any correlation between the number of tanks and the actual amount of people tanking. Right now, we have as many healers as tanks, but the adventurer in need is stuck on tank, not alternating between it and healer. How come?

I wager things such as Palace of the Dead, which has no role restriction, go a much longer way in alleviating such issues than supplying more tanks/healers than there is demand from the playerbase. Especially if it only matters while leveling anyway.

[Shippuu]

Indeed - and the first thing that comes to mind is changing how tanks play in general.

You say this yet offer no suggestion as to how to change how tanks play and why that would solve the issue. What would you do then?

Adding more content that can be done without tanks is certainly an option but then it has its own potential problems. If things are doable without a tank then it risks alienating the population of tank players if they then become shunned from doing certain content for whatever reasons. It becomes a hard thing to balance on top of generally such content in a trinity game is being tricky to design in a way that's not face roll easy. The balance would teeter between being too easy with just dps and a healer with no tank, or being too easy with a tank.

The adventurer in need bonus is also hardly an accurate way to really depict what's actually in need. Plenty of times I've personally seen it requesting tanks yet got a faster or instant queue as a healer.
But yes, generally despite the census showing an equal number of tanks as healers we still often need tanks in the queue, but this will also vary based on data center etc. Only SE really has the data for who's queueing and for what, but adding more incentive to queue as a tank should possibly be considered as well.

[DragoonSantos]

I think they should add Blue Mage with a whip weapon that can be used to save party members from AoE.

[Zojha]

You say this yet offer no suggestion as to how to change how tanks play and why that would solve the issue.

Because I have little idea how to solve it within the system either - I think the trinity design as such is a problem, because it relies on niché roles to be available in sufficient supply at all times (See also: Soccer without Goalkeepers or the infamous 0 money support in MOBAs). The STR meta got people to play tanks more because they could be DPS with a blue background, but that's pretty much just watering down the trinity and infringing upon the DPS role, no? Worse, it means DPS checks need to be more strict, so as to not make pure DPS obsolete and the same applies to healers. Healers in fact are far more problematic here, as a lot of the more casual content can easily be done without a tank and with a healer, but not the other way around.

I can tell you why it would solve the issue however if it was possible to solve (Which I am not sure is): Because people play the job they find has the most enjoyable gameplay overall. Popularity is caused by enjoyment of the gameplay and as such, changing popularity means changing gameplay (Guess why BRD/MCHs are one of if not the most demanded jobs for static replacements). See also: Hole in the boat analogy, you have to fight the cause of an issue to effectively fight the issue. I wager this is precisely why increasing the available tank and healer jobs by 50% did not have any noteworthy impact over the 17% increase in DPS jobs and why all the great incentives from Queue times over AiN to tank mounts have fallen flat so far. And that's also why I do not believe adding more tank/healer jobs solves anything. It's nice to throw this playstyle niché a bone and it might help with their retention, but that's about it.

So...if we don't want to abolish the trinity, we have very limited options. We can make role-less content and try to fit in all the jobs somehow or we can keep updating the dungeon design to accommodate the actual distribution - Right now, we're at 19/19/62, so dungeons should be made with 1 tank, 1 healer and 3 DPS in mind. The issue is that this means changing all previous content as well and who knows where the ratios end up shifting?

It's a common issue with role based gameplay (Not just the trinity!). If a job/character/build is unpopular, the gameplay causing the lack of popularity is easily fixed but if a role is unpopular, it's pretty hard to change the bad gameplay design without abolishing the role in the process.

[Alacran]

The reason it's an issue, (i feel) is the notion of responsibility. As a Tank, you are point, the speed in which you find, engage, and set aggro dictates how fast the dungeon/ raid is cleared. You are the first one to engage the enemy during a boss fight, should you not have a video, previous clear knowledge, or some kind of guide, you are fighting completely blind. As the tank you must be aware of your DPS positionals, your Healers comfort level, your CD use, and mechanics (which on a first run is difficult). if you fail any of these you wipe the party, waste real peoples time and will sometimes get so much flack for your mistakes that it may very well make you question why bother playing the role/ game at all.

I am not saying any other role has it completely easier, however as you are the center of attention, your failures are on stage for all to see... and judge.

I main DRK, i did not Tank in 2.0, as soon as DRK was announced I began Tanking in world of darkness as my WAR, I did not do well. To this day I still primarily only Tank for my FC or as content is introduced, when there are no experts yet, when watching the video is not an option. I am not a great player, I get nervous, frustrated, and self critical. It takes alot to get in there and lead when you are seeing everything for the first time, even more when you know your mistakes are what will hold the party back.

Currently my item level is 238, I hate the idea of speed runs, when people push for them i simply ask to be booted from the dungeon rather than waste their time, I can not help think that if they have a particular speed at which they want to move the option to Tank is available to them as well.

I say all of this as my own personal thoughts and experience, I can understand why people don't want to Tank, the mentality of all mmo communities share the same thought process. We need someone to do the Tankless (heh) job, but only if someone else does it.

Should no Tank jobs be released in the next expansion, should more popular series staples be given to DPS roles, what then incentives the Tanking community to get back in the dungeons? The idea that the number of Tanks would not stay high after the initial contents release is known, the point is to keep what career tanks there are.