Something need to be done in how tanks acquiring Provoke

[Canadane]

I met the same player again but this time in ramuh extreme with me as a tank.. I just told the party that it's not possible to do and sat in the corner until we reached time to abandon duty.

I sympathize with your losses, but that time sitting down doing nothing could have been spent educating the follow player. Having him state that he understands what the abilities he needs do, how to get them, and what he should be doing next.
Also where did you find a corner in a circular arena!?

[lvlagmarink]

I sympathize with your losses, but that time sitting down doing nothing could have been spent educating the follow player. Having him state that he understands what the abilities he needs do, how to get them, and what he should be doing next.
Also where did you find a corner in a circular arena!?

I already did in Titan extreme when the other tank asked why couldn't he swap.. The line was somewhat "of course silly, you need provoke for that......", replying to his "i'm trying.". I dunno if the words can get to him since he's a french.. This was happened a few weeks ago and i havent met that said player again.. I gotta admit that i didn't tell that player where he could get provoke tho.. Lol.. But i did tell a DRK in ramuh ex about it and where to get it from.. Dude, which is also a french seems to not quite get it, but grasp the idea why the party didn't work out..

Also the corner i was speaking of is actually a trap door hidden by ramuh's cloak.. Ya know what eorzean's saying, underneath those cloaks there's an endless realm..

[Bdyer]

]

I was a tank that didn't get provoke until 60. Before flaming let me put some context to this. For any new tank that doesn't do lvl 50 ex raids with a fc, provoke is not required until lvl 60 raids and primals. I knew it was there but dreaded doing it because it's the worst cross class to level. As a player you spend all this time leveling a tank and achieve max or close to max and suddenly... You have to go level practically the same class... At least with healers it's slightly different since your roles change and with dps rotations change.

Then said tank enters a trial or roulette at 60 and learns he needs it for the 1st time. From my experience that party was not understanding in the slightest. I felt like just not learning it to piss people of at that point... Im. sure other people have too.

So just remeber that during the leveing process, provoke is not required.

[Krazymagic]

]

.......So just remeber that during the leveing process, provoke is not required.

....If you want to be a sub par, or less than optimal tank sure. A tanks primary job is to hold threat. There will always be times leveling up where you need to grab instant threat on a mob. Either the dps goes crazy right at the start on the wrong mob, or an add shows up just as the healer blows a massive AOE heal, or if you die mid fight, but the healer swift cast and rez's you. Without provoke you will never get the mob back in a death scenario, unless the rest of the party also die to reset their threat. Provoke is a necessity from the moment you can obtain it. There is simply no reason not to have it, and ignoring it just tells me that someone is lazy, and that usually means a sub par tank who is poor in his execution in other areas as well. Not having it puts you at such a disadvantage in so many scenarios. In a big fight, if I knew a tank didnt have it, I would elect to replace him if possible.

[Bdyer]

....If you want to be a sub par, or less than optimal tank sure. A tanks primary job is to hold threat. There will always be times leveling up where you need to grab instant threat on a mob. Either the dps goes crazy right at the start on the wrong mob, or an add shows up just as the healer blows a massive AOE heal, or if you die mid fight, but the healer swift cast and rez's you. Without provoke you will never get the mob back in a death scenario, unless the rest of the party also die to reset their threat.

From DRK 30 to drk 60 I can't say I ever came into a situation where the party was ever in danger because I didn't have provoke. I think there was one time where I had to spend 1 extra rotation to gain Agro, but that didn't even put the party in danger

Face it, in standard 4 man dungeons/ and hm 50 trials, and even 50+ msq dungeons/trials you can easily never need it.

[Welsper59]

From DRK 30 to drk 60 I can't say I ever came into a situation where the party was ever in danger because I didn't have provoke. I think there was one time where I had to spend 1 extra rotation to gain Agro, but that didn't even put the party in danger

Face it, in standard 4 man dungeons/ and hm 50 trials, and even 50+ msq dungeons/trials you can easily never need it.

While you are right on the reality of the situation, I think the general thought is that you should look at it like you would gathering/crafting success or HQ. If it's not 100%, you're probably going to fail. Likewise with Provoke, if there's even a remote chance that you'd need it to save a party from a wipe, then you "need" to have it.

[Shurrikhan]

From DRK 30 to drk 60 I can't say I ever came into a situation where the party was ever in danger because I didn't have provoke. I think there was one time where I had to spend 1 extra rotation to gain Agro, but that didn't even put the party in danger

Face it, in standard 4 man dungeons/ and hm 50 trials, and even 50+ msq dungeons/trials you can easily never need it.

With the exception of split bosses or duties as not to need to overtake the other tank's enmity, any time you do not have provoke in an 8-man you should probably be playing a DPS or Healer instead. That's especially true for a DRK, who loses a lot more damage from levels 45 onward by using his enmity combo than the other two tanks do, making it that much more inefficient to swap by overtake (if MT threat—and all other sources—were low enough for that to even be possible). There just aren't enough split cleaves (Hydra) and the like wherein the OT can contribute via his mitigation without being targeted. And even many of those cheese fights did require a provoke early on, due to minimal ilvl raid-wide and yet inexperienced healers and dps. Mechanics are at the mercy of scalars.

And then there's the issue of how not having it, or not making it the expectation through and through, limits those content areas for tanks. Admittedly, none of us likely want to see a tank swap mechanic every single fight, least of all a forced one (rather than having the two tanks swap in with their CDs as they see fit). But burst enmity control or target-taking is one of the few mechanics that doesn't just role into percentage absorption / bonus eHP. Why not make it, and other identity components like it, a bigger thing wherever the result might well be more enjoyable?

[Jim_Berry]

From DRK 30 to drk 60 I can't say I ever came into a situation where the party was ever in danger because I didn't have provoke. I think there was one time where I had to spend 1 extra rotation to gain Agro, but that didn't even put the party in danger

Face it, in standard 4 man dungeons/ and hm 50 trials, and even 50+ msq dungeons/trials you can easily never need it.

It'll just make your life (and others) easier. Instead of the healer trying to heal through damage that the dps is receiving due to stealing agro unintentionally while you spam Unleash, Unmend, or get a Power Slash combo off, one Provoke and a sneeze with ease all of that.

[Lan_Mantear]

From DRK 30 to drk 60 I can't say I ever came into a situation where the party was ever in danger because I didn't have provoke. I think there was one time where I had to spend 1 extra rotation to gain Agro, but that didn't even put the party in danger

Face it, in standard 4 man dungeons/ and hm 50 trials, and even 50+ msq dungeons/trials you can easily never need it.

True. But once you leave that comfort zone and do anything more difficult than 4 man dungeons or HM trials, btw people can solo most HM trials, you'll find yourself looking foolish trying to justify why you don't have an essential tanking skill, while everyone else just shakes their head and proceeds to carry you.

[TaranTatsuuchi]

DRG might be a great example, however. They can function well without the need of any cross-class skill. Their core rotation is easy to do, and their combos are seperate, stack together, add DOTS along the way, etc, and their cross class skills just give them access to a few handy buffs. Nothing vital at all.

It's not a difficult job to get good enough at that the average party could note that said DRG was missing Invigorate (rarely needed) or Bloodbath (already have a hp sucking skill) and causing major issues.

Unlike Provoke.


So again, under certain circumstances, a player may not understand how vital the skill is since up to that point nothing else was, even if they understood the system fine.

You know...

Mreh, I got them mixed up, I'm sorry. (don't know why I thought Invigorate was a PUG skill o.o'''....)



I've actually had a few DF conversations on useful cross class skills, as well.

It usually came down to, "Do you have such-n-such skill?"
"No."
"It'll make you're life way easier with it, and here's why!"
"Okay, cool. Thanks."

Ah yes.

Still it would be quite the feat to level up Dragoon to high levels and not get Invigorate...
That would be something worth investigating should it happen. XD