I Hate Charibert Even More Now (Tales From the Dragonsong War Update) (SPOILER)

[Theodric]

It's a shame that the 'well intentioned extremist' angle wasn't played up more for both the Archbishop and his followers. The story was an excellent opportunity to paint them both in a more sympathetic light and let us see their side of things. As it stands the masses are just going to read into it as the antagonists being comically evil. Whilst that's technically true in Charibert's case it isn't so much the case with the Archbishop.

I guess it's too much to hope for one of the future stories to paint Aymeric in a negative light for a change, eh?

[MilesSaintboroguh]

It's a shame that the 'well intentioned extremist' angle wasn't played up more for both the Archbishop and his followers. The story was an excellent opportunity to paint them both in a more sympathetic light and let us see their side of things. As it stands the masses are just going to read into it as the antagonists being comically evil. Whilst that's technically true in Charibert's case it isn't so much the case with the Archbishop.

I guess it's too much to hope for one of the future stories to paint Aymeric in a negative light for a change, eh?

Considering the history of the war and possible shady things from the church, the church and its people would never be seen in a sympathetic view.

[LineageRazor]

Considering the history of the war and possible shady things from the church, the church and its people would never be seen in a sympathetic view.

Don't forget that all these shady dealings are not common knowledge in the church. The sordid origins of Ishgard are a story known to the Archbishop and maybe a handful of other high-ranking individuals. The majority of the clergy, and certainly the majority of the followers of Halone are guilty only of believing what they've been taught for generations upon generations. When the truth was revealed, there were a few holdouts to the old dogma in the church, to be sure, but game dialog indicates that the church is now going through a period of revisioning. The majority of Ishgardians very likely DO believe in and worship Halone, after all. That hasn't changed. Once the church cleans itself up, they'll be fine with it.

Thordan and his ilk, on the other hand, will likely be branded as villains in the consciousness of the people of Ishgard - but that doesn't mean they can't be presented to the PLAYERS as sympathetic in their motivations. This has already been done, honestly; from the mouth of Thordan himself, he explained that while he knew that perpetuating the lie was wrong, the everpresent threat of Nidhogg meant that anything short of a unified front would lead to the deaths of everyone in Ishgard - and to reveal the horrible truth WOULD throw Ishgard into chaos, just as it is doing now. And so he kept the secret, all while scheming and dealing to acquire enough power to end Nidhogg's threat for good.

Of course, it's true that Nidhogg wouldn't necessarily have destroyed Ishgard once it was thrown into chaos. Niddy intended to torture them all for as long as possible, after all, so he might have reined things in a bit until Ishgard's civil war played itself out, and then gotten back to tormenting them in earnest. However, Thordan did not know this; this was a revelation that the Warrior of Light discovered during the main scenario - the fact that for all the horrors Ishgard had endured over the centuries, Nidhogg was only PLAYING with them and could have at any time swooped in and wiped them all out.

At any rate the hooks are there to present Thordan as a well-intentioned extremist. He was honest with the Warrior of Light about his dealings with the Ascians, and was frank about the fact that he knew they were bad news and intended to betray them when he got the chance - which he DID. The anguish of knowing the truth about Ishgard's shady origins and making the hard decision to continue the lie, he shared with his son, who then relayed it to us. The question is whether you, as a player, believe in his underlying good intentions or not. Was he a man in a hard position who made some ruthless decisions to bring about what he thought was the only way to secure Ishgard's future? Or was he a power-hungry mad tyrant who cared not a whit about anything but ruling over all with an iron fist, and told whatever lies he needed to to achieve that goal?

Personally, I go for the man-in-a-hard-position theory. Honestly, he had no reason to lie to Aymeric. He could have just locked the guy up without an audience - or even killed him outright. Why bother trying to justify himself to Aymeric? He wanted at least one person to know the painful position he was in, someone to know that he had reasons beyond personal power for doing the awful things he was doing.

Certainly, he crossed the threshold into megalomaniacal supervillainy when he actually became a Primal and declared his intent to rule the world, but that could simply have been a side effect of becoming a Primal in the first place. The only other individual we've known to transform into a Primal was Ysayle, and she had the benefit of having the Echo to protect her.

Veering back to the subject of this thread, Thordan's cleaning out the old guard as illustrated in the "What Remains of a Knight" story could also be seen as an example of this ruthless pragmatism. While, to be fair, Thordan's hand was not shown to be directly involved in Ser Vaindreau's "retirement", as it was a black-robed man (Ascian, is what we're likely being lead to assume) that provided the "intelligence" Charibert used as an excuse to do away with him, it's likely that he tacitly approved of the treachery. Vaindreau's suspicions and snooping had made him a liability - not to mention the fact that he was getting on in years and was probably not the martial powerhouse he used to be (and martial skill seemed to be a requirement for Thordan's Knights of the Round). That doesn't mean he had to like it, however.

[Frederick22]

Thordan did not know this; this was a revelation that the Warrior of Light discovered during the main scenario - the fact that for all the horrors Ishgard had endured over the centuries, Nidhogg was only PLAYING with them and could have at any time swooped in and wiped them all out.

Vaindreau's suspicions and snooping had made him a liability - not to mention the fact that he was getting on in years and was probably not the martial powerhouse he used to be (and martial skill seemed to be a requirement for Thordan's Knights of the Round). That doesn't mean he had to like it, however.

Thordan knew this, he knew he hole truth. About Nidhogg's vengance and how he was torturin Ishgard. Aymeric say it, he was not willing to make such a change on Ishgard and trusting on its people. He prefer to rule the world.

Thordan was not inoccent of this matter, he got warned that was being seeing. So he acted, and lied after it. It has nothing to do with Ishgard's old rules of who and who not is a heretic.