(AST) i dont see any reason why i should use nocturnal stance >_>

[Alistaire]

A shield+regen will give more dps uptime then a double regen that does nothing but overheal, it just works better in most situations. Ever done seph EX or nidhogg EX? If someone tried to do some silly double regen strat there they'd be kicked by any decent group because shields reign supreme.

Noct isn't 'gimping yourself', it's a different playstyle.It's fine if you don't like it, but encouraging people to play with double regens so the whole group has no shields for more EHP is just stupid, sorry to say, and you're going to have a lot more people dying to mechanics without shields than you would if you had them. The only time I'd ever suggest going diurnal with a white mage would be if the white mage was garbage.

This is just so far out in left field idk what to say. You may play with people that think this, but this is by no means some general meta.

[Nekotee]

Both are right and wrong, it merely depend of the fight
Niddhogg do not really require shield
Because all attack and raid damage wave are slow and not so high
You rarely spam succor under akh morn

sephiEx shield were required because tipheret were very fast and needed to be soak in by shield
Both sephiEx and thordanEx required shield on their time because their LB were insane damage

[FoxyAreku]

This is just so far out in left field idk what to say. You may play with people that think this, but this is by no means some general meta.

I don't know how one could consider using the stances in the way they were intended 'out of left field', but if you say so. It's pretty obvious that noct is meant to be a scholar replacement, and it does an ok job at that.

To me (and pretty much everyone I know), considering double regens to be even close to a general meta is out of left field because it's so sub-optimal. You can get away with it in most content, and it has its perks, but it's not anything anyone should do when tackling content that you don't have on farm. It's like saying double white mage is a good comp (and I seriously hope you don't think that, otherwise the value of your opinion just went out the window).

Shields are good. Some fights require them when you are doing them at the intended gear level. Sure you can do easy content with double regens, but you can also do easy content with 7 warriors and a white mage, doesn't make it a good strategy.

Both are right and wrong, it merely depend of the fight
Niddhogg do not really require shield
Because all attack and raid damage wave are slow and not so high
You rarely spam succor under akh morn

sephiEx shield were required because tipheret were very fast and needed to be soak in by shield
Both sephiEx and thordanEx required shield on their time because their LB were insane damage

My point exactly. Though shields still make add, fang and claw, and tower phase a lot easier IMO.

You should never do this silly double regen comp in EX fights or savage-and if it's not viable there, the only part of the game where composition truly matters, then it's not a viable strategy.

Now if you're just wanting the best solo performance in a pug, then sure, use diurnal all day, who even cares.

[_slowpoke_]

A shield+regen will give more dps uptime then a double regen that does nothing but overheal

Uh, except that's still wrong? Double Regens will, on many fights, allow you and your co-healer to stay in Cleric for at least the next 24s, because you can ignore most subsequent damage and let the HoTs do their magic. Shields do not provide this amount of uptime. Also, Diurnal is the better stance for DPS. You still have not provided any actual arguments for using Noct.

Ever done seph EX or nidhogg EX?

Yes, many times, and obviously with a SCH, because why would you take a Nocturnal AST into these fights in the first place? In organized group play, you go as WHM/SCH or D.AST/SCH. I was assuming we were talking about DF content where you end up with WHM/AST because no one in their right mind would voluntarily run this composition.

I don't know how one could consider using the stances in the way they were intended 'out of left field'

What something was intended as doesn't really matter. The fact of the matter is that it's the suboptimal thing to do.

Shields are good.

Yes, when provided by a SCH, because that means you don't have a job in your group that's factually worse than SCH in almost every single regard.

Though shields still make add, fang and claw, and tower phase a lot easier IMO.

Uh, none of these strictly require shields, and I'm pretty sure Fang & Claw as well as tower phase would actually be easier with double regen. I haven't tried, I basically solo heal those parts anyway.

You should never do this silly double regen comp in EX fights or savage-and if it's not viable there, then it's not a viable strategy.

That's funny, because this is the exact same argument I've been using against Noct the entire time. No one has stated that double Regen is an optimal thing to do, merely that it's often better than the other suboptimal choice, which is taking a N.AST in the first place.

To sum this up: D.AST is always better than N.AST unless you strictly require shields, and if you do, you take a SCH instead.

[Tsumes]

I'm a newb at this game in comparison to most of you so my opinion may not matter. But from what I've seen so far. Using Noct is pretty much useless. The damage it stops is extremely low and negligible to the point where you'd be better off with a HoT. The only times I use it is when I don't see a SCH in the group. But even then it's a coin toss depending on the instance being ran.

[FoxyAreku]

snip

Every way, no, not even close in fact. Adlo isn't instant, and is only good if it's spread with deployment tactics or if it crits, meanwhile aspected benefic-noct is very good, probably the best emergency skill in the game for single target. 120% shield is nothing to sneeze at.

Scholar is the better class and obviously you should have it as the shield healer if it's available-but that's not what I've been discussing, I've been discussing situations where a scholar isn't available, which can happen. As someone who has gone through every HW EX primal and up through A6S as a noct AST for fun-it is not as bad as you are making it out to be.

But hey, we both seem like pretty stubborn people, so we'll just agree to disagree.

I'm a newb at this game in comparison to most of you so my opinion may not matter. But from what I've seen so far. Using Noct is pretty much useless. The damage it stops is extremely low and negligible to the point where you'd be better off with a HoT. The only times I use it is when I don't see a SCH in the group. But even then it's a coin toss depending on the instance being ran.

It's certainly not extremely low. Mine shields for about 3500 after being mathed out, even more if it crits, that's pretty damn good for an instant cast tbh.

But yeah, I think people have misunderstood me, even though my first post specifically said "If there is no scholar in the group"....noct is just something to use if there isn't a scholar. Nothing more.

[Venjamin]

Foxy, man, I am with you. Nocturnal is just more aesthetically pleasing. I'd -rather- be in Nocturnal stance. But there is literally no universe ( right now ) where N.Ast is better than Sch. And in a situation where you CAN use N.ast, you are just as okay using D.ast because double regens are perfectly reasonable. While N.Ast may have instant shields over Sch, that just doesn't make up for enough. Your DPS will suffer, and your overall performance will go down. This is simple numbers.

Again, it's been pointed out, people aren't "against" N.ast. It's just that no one wants a stance that is just a suboptimal version of Sch. They want some form of rework, or tweaks to make N.Ast more viable.

[Nekotee]

I'm a newb at this game in comparison to most of you so my opinion may not matter. But from what I've seen so far. Using Noct is pretty much useless. The damage it stops is extremely low and negligible to the point where you'd be better off with a HoT. The only times I use it is when I don't see a SCH in the group. But even then it's a coin toss depending on the instance being ran.

To adds more of what Foxy-kun said
The provided shield is 130% of the healing
Which mean the basic non crit shield of ast is always stronger than an equally geared scholar
It's true that in crit you can go to 9000 shield with critAdlo
But ast go for 5500 instant critAspect

The instant is key

In a non crit situation
Ast win

...


Beside talking about negligible shield
If a player have 1000 hp left and a wide unavoidable 2000 dmg aoe is coming

Give him a regen and the player die because the server tick didn't happends or the tick is too weak
Give him a shield and the player is still alive, barely but still alive

That's the difference, sometime you have to have it
(Ergo sephirot if the main healer is too slow, niddhogg to ease the akhmorn)

[Valknut]

Snip

IF you had 2 Aoe regens, and 2 single target regens on this supposed target. He would never be in this spot.

N.ast can make some things super trivial like A8 normal. Super easy to keep good shields up on everyone at all times. But your shielding dmg that isnt fatal, and your not doing any DPS worth a damn while keeping your shields up. So why not just be a D. AST?

N.ast sounds like they have power house abilities, hell you can cherry pick a lot about AST an make them sound OP. The problem is they aren't, SCH is. N AST has none of the useful utility spells that D.AST/SCH has pushing it even farther behind.

[randysquirrel]

As AST if I'm paired with WHM i'll go noct, with SCH i'll go di. Generally prefer di as it has some synergy with CO and TD, but doesn't really matter.

Don't really get people saying such n such is better in nidex or sephex, any combo of healers are viable there, so aren't really evidence of anything at all imo