A proposed solution for having players become better players.

[CheshirePuss]

I've seen this very suggestion made in the past, and I've already denied it nearly outright with my own personal take on it. While many dungeon runs could be considered simplistic and self explanatory to some, the requirements of all roles will always have a slight difference to them. Some will require a full dps check to meet the demand of the run's pace, or to have the dps actually slow down their dps due to an ilvl check of the tank, and potentially the healer as well. There is almost no circumstance outside of raid mechanics that forces the demand, that requires players to meet such goals. There is no reason to pretend there is either.

We have dummies in both standard and instance form that allows us to test our limits already as is. We have no need to add a heavy elitist to gameplay that is meant to be fun.

[NovaLevossida]

I've seen this very suggestion made in the past, and I've already denied it nearly outright with my own personal take on it. While many dungeon runs could be considered simplistic and self explanatory to some, the requirements of all roles will always have a slight difference to them. Some will require a full dps check to meet the demand of the run's pace, or to have the dps actually slow down their dps due to an ilvl check of the tank, and potentially the healer as well. There is almost no circumstance outside of raid mechanics that forces the demand, that requires players to meet such goals. There is no reason to pretend there is either.

We have dummies in both standard and instance form that allows us to test our limits already as is. We have no need to add a heavy elitist to gameplay that is meant to be fun.

There's literally nothing elitist about asking that players do more than the bare minimum to get by nor is there elitism in proposing a system that doesn't punish players for doing the bare minimum. I'm quite literally not saying you need to parse within 5% of the world's best or anything like that. It's just that as each individual gets better, groups and the community as a whole becomes better. I still don't understand how people equate mutual (and optional) improvement as elitism.

[CheshirePuss]

Snip

I have no arguments against encouraging players to improve themselves one way or another. But another formula unfortunately won't fix this. The biggest problem is that we're late in the game right now, and it should be considered that the ilvl cap for a great deal of the available normal dungeons, allow players to plow through older content with little effort. Meaning any time I queue for a leveling/50/60 roulette for eso, I'll need to consider the possibility that I'll be entering a type of dungeon where my capped damage that may outdo the enmity that the tank can muster. Meaning there are times where I, as a DPS, have to deliberately hold back to avoid complicating the matter. So the formula can prove to be counter productive in such a situation.

Also, the whole point of SSS is already to give it your all, or it defeats the purpose of it. Treating SSS as the bare minimum is unfortunately proving my point, even if this isn't intentional.

Should also mention that we have the leafy npc's tutorial sessions for this very purpose.

[NovaLevossida]

snip

I don't see the problem with treating SSS as a bare minimum. SSS gauges whether or not you should queue for content, but it doesn't prevent you from queuing. The proposal is, as I said, a completely optional bonus objective for playing well, so I don't see how getting a bonus reward for doing more than a baseline minimum is somehow bad.

As for tank enmity concerns, that's valid, and I'd be for adjusting the metrics to incorporate a factor judging just how much of your job you can be expected to do relative to the performance of others in your party.

[CheshirePuss]

I don't see the problem with treating SSS as a bare minimum. SSS gauges whether or not you should queue for content, but it doesn't prevent you from queuing. The proposal is, as I said, a completely optional bonus objective for playing well, so I don't see how getting a bonus reward for doing more than a baseline minimum is somehow bad.

As for tank enmity concerns, that's valid, and I'd be for adjusting the metrics to incorporate a factor judging just how much of your job you can be expected to do relative to the performance of others in your party.

I'd be fascinated to see the formulaic process behind that type of feature then. More for curiosity's sake. *-*

[NovaLevossida]

I'd be fascinated to see the formulaic process behind that type of feature then. More for curiosity's sake. *-*

I would too.

[Fourbestintoner]

Make the highest raid tier drop sexy armors. People will git gud so they can git sexy.

[RiceisNice]

There is a saying that people would benefit from remembering;

"You catch more flies with honey, than with vinegar."

If people were not so focused on labeling others and punishing so-called 'bads', perhaps they'd realize that helping others at a pace that works for them is far, far more productive.

Not to take this quote out of context, but the reverse also holds true; don't piss on people who are using the proverbial honey. I mean it's the exception to DF encounters as much as when you see people that piss on people for genuinely not getting the mechanics yet, but we want it to stay an exception, not encourage it to become a regular thing (which is unfortunately what I see in most discussions, for both) I'm not against a system that encourages players to play better, but I would like some sort of design/system to essentially give a "wakeup call" to players who haven't (or won't) learned to do their base job mechanics at level 60, whether it be the tuning of the dungeons/solo instances or a metric. At the very least, people should not be justifying or defending bad plays or even player obliviousness, either through the leveling process or at 60.

[Fevelle]

Healers DPS is needed for every content, cause more DPS = quickest kills/dps check. It's not a matter of being necessary/mandatory or not, you're just a bad healer if you're not DPSing. It's like having two hands but using just one of them all the time.
It's almost the same thing for DPS when it comes to stuff such Second Wind, Rend Mind, Dragon Kick ect., with the only difference than healers DPS does affect progression a lot.

Just like in real life, if something is not mandatory or enforced by some type of law, not everyone will bother to do that. That's how things work. I think everyone needs to learn to push themselves to the limit while expecting the minimal from others, and also understand that it's their right not to DPS if they don't want to. I'm a main healer on both my main and alt and I tend to DPS a lot, but this forceful mindset of "you NEED to DPS if you want to be a good player" just disgust me.

[coco1851]

My question is how come in every mmo forum you always got those people that discuss/argue/bash about someone else's skill level? The mmo I used to play before this I was a master at healing & dps after I practiced for a long time, it took me a long time because it was my very first mmo ever. When I first started it just like this game I was a train wreck, no joke still to this day if you see me trying to tank run for the hills cause I really suck at it! The point is with practice is how people get good, if that's what their goal is anyway. Do you really think that someone who cares, really likes being bad at their role?

Cause we don't like being bad which is why we practice until we get good. So no I'm sorry I don't think someone who is good should get more stuff for being good. That's like saying someone with a crappy attitude should get less stuff than someone with a good attitude. Just chill us bad players will either get good eventually or leave the game, if your that worried about playing with bad players then make your own group.