Patch 3.3 (Trailer) Discussion (2.x - 3.2 Spoilers)

[Tenkuu]

I don't mind debating but when it takes 30+ minutes to draft a reply it's taking entirely too long. That's considerably more effort than I put into some of my college posts. I could be... you know... playing the game instead... but... goddamnit, here I am...

And if you don't enjoy it, you don't have to do it. I'm seriously not holding a gun to your head here. By all means, if you prefer to spend more time on playing the game, go do so. Otherwise, acknowledge that you're here of your own free will and tone down the verbal abuse. Don't act like you're better than me and doing me a favor by being here, because trust me, you're not. As for college (or rather university in my case), I find it far less inspiring than this game tbh, with the exception of a few classes.

Answering each topic separately is not looking at the whole of the argument, but dealing with it piecemeal instead. It's one topic.

Actually, understanding the parts of an argument is a big part of understanding the whole. It always works well for me.

The point is that in general, Japanese voice acting is more emotional than English because it's a stylistic choice, so complaining that the English dialogue lacks the emotion of the Japanese dialogue (and that it's a mark of the voice actors' ineptitude) is a flawed argument. They won't be the same because they have different styles.

Believe it or not most animated programs in Japan are, like in the West, for children. The ones produced for adults are few and far between. And again, the more experienced English voice actors do generally deliver solid performances and given good direction deliver great performances. Nobody who manages to get there treats it like a "Yeah, whatever" deal.

I agreed with you, didn't I, that the voice actors are not the ones to blame? It is merely a difference of attitude in the industry as a whole. When you are given a poor script and poorer working conditions, there is no way that the final product will be of quality. But no, it comes down to more than a stylistic choice, specifically because of the reasons I stated. And yes, there are English voice actors who delivery better performances than others, but ask fans, and you'll find that they are few and far between. To get an idea of whether they take it as seriously or not, just compare two interviews on the same show in both languages. There will rarely if ever be a discussion about the characters themselves in English; instead, the focus will usually be on the process itself.

Taking translation liberties is sometimes necessary. A literal translation rarely makes sense, and taking liberties with it can actually help in some cases. Case and point: Kefka from VI is just a psychotic moron in the Japanese version, but the English version made him considerably funnier, turning him into the much-beloved character he is here. He's never been as popular in Japan as he is in the West because he had a good localization. Is this a violation of the producer's "original vision?" Absolutely. But who says it can't be better?

As for whether or not less is expected of English voice actors... well, maybe. The industry isn't as big (partially thanks to the fact that Hollywood movies are often dubbed in foreign languages, and are a big part of said industry - instead of watching a Hollywood film in English with subtitles, they dub over the audio track. Heresy, I know.) but to say the voice actors take their jobs less seriously, or that less is expected of them, is a case-by-case basis. Sometimes they get the script ahead of time and can practice or prepare. Sometimes they don't. There's rarely someone else in the recording booth, but that's just a matter of scheduling (getting the whole ensemble together is oftentimes impractical) and the fact that, for foreign dubs of animated programs, matching the mouth movements with the dialogue is challenging enough as is. *Furthermore while I don't know I'm going to guess that most voice recording in Japan is in Tokyo, while it's spread out across various cities elsewhere (or at least in America). As for memorizing lines? In both languages they have the script either in hand or right in front of them...

Just checking, but are you seriously making a big distinction, character wise, between a psychotic moron and a psychotic clown? Because I'm pretty sure that "psychotic" is rather the key element here, and that seems to be the general consensus in all languages. See the difference between completely changing a character's personality and changing only certain aspects of it?

Scheduling is not really an excuse when work needs to be done, least of all if you want it to be done well. It also goes back to the idea that voice acting is more of a career in Japan: they put their all into it rather than put aside a tiny portion of time to go record their lines then come home. And sure, it may be impractical to get everyone together, but when it needs to be done, it should be. The recording in Japan taking place in Tokyo has pretty much nothing to do with anything though, considering that not all voice actors come from Tokyo in the first place, they make the effort to go there because they care enough about advancing their career. Also, translation itself is a process, and there are different ways of doing it that don't involve perfectly literal translation. However, when you take liberties, you're appropriating the work and putting your own spin on it, and I'm sorry to say, but sometimes this is just not ok when you essentially change the meaning of a sentence, the focus of a plot, or the personality of a character. These have all clearly been observed in FFXIV and they are the reason why most fans do not rely on the English version for detailed explanations.

If you think there are no crummy performances in Japanese, you just haven't heard enough performances. *And I implore you to take this neither personally nor the wrong way, but if you have to cross-reference the JP dialogue with the FR/EN text I seriously doubt you're in any sort of position to be judging the quality of the JP voice performances...

Of course there are bad performances in every language, but we're talking about an original Japanese work, so of course it's going to be better in Japanese. *And I implore you not to pretend that you haven't actually taken personal shots at me before. I may take some things personally, but I know how to read people. In fact, when you put on a fake face, that's when I can't read you through the falsehood. So be honest, that's all I ask.
As far as the actual quality of the Japanese performances go, it isn't just me that's in a position to judge it. Everyone has the ability to perceive emotion in voices and can tell when a performance sounds inauthentic. Not only that, but in fact, several other players have judged the English version's performances and found them lacking. Final note: the actual voice performance has nothing to do with the translation of the dialogue. I find both to be lacking in the English version for different reasons.

And here we get to the crux of the argument: the "original vision." Ahh. Simply put: it depends on the work. Old shows that are dubbed over and released these days are certainly not going to be the "original vision" (but again, who says they can't be as good as or better than the original?), but these days a lot of foreign dubs have input from the original producers ranging from casting input to requiring their approval to release it. With XIV, which is produced almost in tandem in all four languages, this is almost certainly the case. Case and point: Midgardsormr was rather chatty in Japanese, so at Yoshi-P's behest they made him brusque and imposing in English. Is this a violation of the "original vision?"

Are we talking about the same character here? Midgarsormr *was* imposing in the Japanese version and they made him sound much less serious in the English version. I feel like I'm reading a complete reversal of his actual portrayal in your argument. Also, the difference is not merely between Japanese and English Midgarsormr, it's between English and every other language. And guess what? Everyone, even American fans, noticed how out of character Midgarsormr seemed in the English version, and they went digging for the other versions to draw the comparison and actually understand what he was saying. So was it a good idea to change Midgarsormr's personality and lines in this case? Did it add to our understanding of the character? No. Instead, all it did was add to his entertainment value, and he was not even really taken seriously. In my case, I actually disliked him at first based on the English subtitles I read because he sounded like some moronic douchebag. Is that a good portrayal for an ancient dragon? I think not. And a good majority feel the same way.

Let's be clear here: there are four different languages and four possible interpretations, but only the English version consistently takes sometimes extreme liberties with its translation. Also, as I've said before, localization as it's used by the American team seems to be an excuse for a bad translation rather than a valid justification for acceptable changes from the original. When every other version is pointing the finger at yours and essentially asking why you're the only different one, your version is the faulty one, not every other one that disagrees with it. Heck, do I even need to point out how bad the English version makes Alphinaud appear? Not that he's exactly a favorite among Japanese players either, but he's portrayed as so much more arrogant and dismissive in the English version. Just a simple example from the very end of 2.55, right before the credit roll, when Alphinaud is thanking everyone for their support: in the Japanese version he thanks you personally as a guardian of Eorzea; in the English version, he makes some generalized statement about Eorzea having guardians and the thanks is completely removed. Maybe now you understand why the English version and some of its character changes seriously anger a good many people? The English version has a tendency to be minimalist and dismissive, whereas the Japanese version generally tends to acknowledge everyone individually.

I understand the base differences in the process *(as someone whose professed dream is to be a voice actor, do you really think I wouldn't?), I simply acknowledge there are going to be differences in the performances as a result and judge a given dub against its own language instead of trying to compare apples to oranges (so to speak). The English 2.0 release was not very good. They learned from that and it got much better over 2.x. I cannot vouch for the quality of the Japanese audio because I admittedly do not understand the language and by extension and am in no place to make a judgment, but again, there is nothing saying that the original audio track is going to be the best just because it's the original and that anything else is just a shoddy attempt to imitate it.

I never said you didn't understand them, I said that you didn't take them into consideration. We're *all* comparing the dubs to the original, but the difference with your argument is that you're trying to justify bad changes. The thing is, when you're bringing a Japanese property somewhere else, you still have to acknowledge that that's what it is: a Japanese property. You must retain the majority of its aesthetic otherwise you will inevitably not appeal to your target audience: those who are fans of Japanese properties. At least, unlike some English dubs, they didn't touch the music or outright cut out or change scenes. Even if you do not understand Japanese, or at least not fully, there are translations that exist, and there are also other versions where it's been made clear by fans who know this stuff better than us that the translation remained largely faithful to the original. As such, yes, you are in a position to judge which one is better: the one that is better is the one that explains what needs to be explained, doesn't take shortcuts, and doesn't omit important details. At this point, there are just so many things that are unclear in the English dub alone that fans have *needed* to turn to other versions for clarity. That's as clear an indication as any that the English dub is lacking.

Did not see said interview; a link would be nice. I'm going to chalk it up to being from 2.0, where that did seem to be the case but again, it got much better over 2.x because they learned what they did for 2.0 was not cutting it.

The recording process is different in English and Japanese. This is going to produce differences in the performances. That doesn't mean one is better or worse; they're just in different languages. Judge it against its own language, not another.

This is it. And yeah, I'm sure that it got better, but there are still changes being made that aren't necessary.

If you give it less time, of course it's going to be worse. And no, we're not judging it against its own language, because this is an evaluation of how well the English version holds up as a dub.

Being a voice actor outside of Japan is about the same, career-wise, as being one inside of it. Unless you're a veteran you don't get paid well and need to supplement your career with side jobs, and yes there are events for English voice actors if you go looking in the right places. Again, that Japanese voice actors are held in higher esteem than their Western counterparts is largely a myth propagated and perpetuated by nerds trying to make themselves feel cooler than they actually are because they're watching foreign cartoons (or playing games with a foreign audio track).

No offense, but in making an ignorant claim like that it's the same career-wise both in Japan and outside of it, you're the one who's sounding like, and I quote, a "nerd trying to make themselves feel cooler than they actually are". You're the one who cares about how cool they sound, all I care about is how much I can enjoy the game. I don't enjoy FFXIV with the English voice acting, so I don't play it with it. When the performances don't sound wooden, they tend to sound overacted. I can even refer you to a very recent example: I listened to Aymeric in the English trailer, and I knew what scene his lines were from, and I could not detect anywhere near the same amount of feeling as in the Japanese version, where you could practically hear his voice breaking as he talked about Estinien.

If English movies are best in English... then why do the Japanese dub over the English audio tracks (etc.)? *Why do the Final Mix versions of the Kingdom Hearts games always have the English audio track, when the Japanese was the original and said Final Mixes were released exclusively in Japan until the compilation PS3 releases? Why do some Japanese properties, such as Resident Evil, No More Heroes, Devil May Cry, and Metal Wolf Chaos have exclusively English audio tracks? Hmm... it's almost like the Japanese don't believe that Japanese properties are always going to be best in Japanese themselves, or are at least willing to observe (and sometimes appreciate) alternate interpretations of characters. So why do you hold this belief, and why aren't you willing?

Why else? American movies are translated to Japanese for the majority of the population that likely don't understand a language that is at least partially, if not fully, foreign to them. Why ask a question that you already know the answer to? As for Kingdom Hearts, I don't know it, so can't speak as to it. Also, please don't confuse Japanese properties made specifically with an originally English track with those that are made with originally Japanese ones. Now *that*, if anything, is comparing apples to oranges. At the same time, keep in mind that marketing and your target audience both play a large part in exactly how you handle the release of products. Oh and the one thing I do know about Kingdom Hearts is that it is not an exclusively Japanese production, but rather a collaboration between Japan and America. The fact that you're trying to undermine a valid argument about the value of an original product by ignoring this fact, and are instead using subterfuge to try to pretend that it's something other than what it actually is, proves to me how desperate you are at this point. Final note: all cultures appropriate some aspects of others, or are you now going to try to pretend that all anime involves purely Japanese culture? As such, it's hardly a surprise when some elements of another language are used. In some instances, English may sound more "cool" to the Japanese, or may simply be more appropriate depending on the context. So why can't *you* accept the value of an original foreign property in its original language?

Spoken dialogue and soundtracks are very different components of the overall feel. Saying changing one is the same as changing the other is, again, trying to make a figurative comparison between apples and oranges.

It really isn't. You tried to make the point yourself that English should somehow be considered better because some Japanese productions choose to include it in their music. Besides, music was merely used as an example in this case. The point was that in drastically changing any element of the original production, you're going to get a completely different feel for it. Music is a particularly good example because it is known to be what sets the mood in any given scene. If there is one element of FFXIV that everyone can agree is above par in every version, because it remains the same, it's the music. That is another reason why it makes the perfect example.

"Nerd" was a self-deprecating dig (though really the proper term is "geek"). Let's be honest: anyone playing this game is a nerd, I'm just self-aware enough to realize it and unashamed to admit it. (Seriously, I'm arguing the age old "dub vs. sub" with someone I don't even know... on the internet! It doesn't get much nerdier!) That people insist on perpetuating the myth that the original audio track will always be better is the real problem: case and point, this isn't an argument you really see anywhere outside the English fandom, or at least not to the same volume.

You think yourself good at turning an argument around, but sadly, you're not. You didn't use "nerd" as a self-deprecating dig, you used it to insult those who appreciate the value of an original foreign work in its original language. You're only now calling yourself one because you've been called out on using it improperly. Nice try though.

That's just a difference between cultures. Most shows (etc.) only run for a single season in Japan, and the ones that go on longer do tend to have role reprisals. The same is true in English.

I can recognize English voice actors based purely on their performances... usually, if I've heard them before. Say hi to Starscream for me next time you go chat with Alphinaud!

In both English and Japanese characters tend to be reduced to stereotypes when accents are used (Takarada from Kill la Kill!, anyone?).

Don't confuse accents with dialects and differences in levels of formalities. For instance, it's well known that those who are from Osaka speak a different dialect than those who grew up in Tokyo. As for the levels of formality, I can point you to one anime, my favorite, where there is a great variety of them. There are creatures from another world who are far older than our main characters, and tend to speak an antiquated and very formal version of Japanese. One of the main characters was raised in a strictly traditional Japanese home and his family owns a dojo. He also speaks a formal version of Japanese. Another of the main characters is a Chinese boy who is the eldest in a large family and was raised in Shinjuku: he speaks in a very casual and enthusiastic manner to everyone, and is sometimes even reprimanded for being too informal. Yet another one grew up in Osaka and so speaks in a Kansai dialect. If I look at a character like Thancred, his level of formality is generally low except perhaps during his stint as Nanamo's advisor and when he's trying to impress a woman. This reflects his upbringing as a poor Lominsan boy while also taking into account his Sharlayan education. He oftens ends his sentences with a "ze", "zo", "na" (his greeting to you when you meet all of the Scions for the first time is "yoroshiku na") or "sa". You can use this as a reference for just how casual he is.

I don't know the anime you're talking about, but if the character you're describing is meant to sound like an American, that's a different story. He may have been given an accent as the Japanese perceive it, but certainly there have been many examples in the past of badly rendered American accents of all sorts in the Japanese version of any given anime.

I'm not trying to be negative, I just don't like the fact replying to your posts takes the lion's share of my afternoon (and I work night shift). This has taken me literally two hours.

You have two choices: either take the time to properly reply by doing it all in one go or splitting your reply into several smaller ones that you may choose to write up at different times, or don't respond at all. Trust me, I don't need your haughty attitude and generally try to ignore it for the sake of responding to the actual content of your argument, but when you're being purposely antagonistic, I *will* fight back.

You're right - people like what they do for various reasons. So... why does any one language have to be superior? (Hint: it doesn't. They all have good and bad points, but if you refuse to listen to anything but the "original vision" you are closing yourself off to other interpretations of the same character, none of which are strictly "bad" or whatever purely because they aren't the same as, or an extremely close approximation of, the "original vision." This would make you a terrible theater critic.)

Guess what? I spoke from *my* perspective. My experience, my opinion, my tastes. You're the one who decided to metaphorically sigh dramatically and grandstand, not me. Please note that for several pages of this thread, you wrote replies that I didn't feel any need or interest to respond to, so I didn't. You're the one who seems to have this obsession with me. Guess what else? I've mentioned several times before that there are good dubs, but unlike you, I'm not obsessed with the English language, or even the Japanese one for that matter. I like to watch foreign movies when they happen to be on TV and their themes strongly interest me. I have an appreciation for almost all things foreign with the exception of a few languages that I don't enjoy. Japanese happens to be the language that coincides with most of my interests. I like their culture, some of their anime series, some of their music, several of their specific products (such as wall scrolls) and even some of their live action dramas.

If I weren't an apathetic and dispassionate 27-year old Schizoid with no acting experience past non-speaking roles in Nativity plays 20 years ago...

Maybe you've seen the recent meme going around on Tumblr about Oprah only becoming famous in her 30s? The gist of that meme was that you have to fail/be fired before you can become who you're meant to be.

BELATED EDIT
I understand the gist of your argument - that things are best in the original language they were produced in. I agree this is true in some cases - particularly films, where body language and subtle facial expressions are very important. However, when a character is animated (traditionally or CG) the lack of physical existence means their character is created purely by the actor, script, and director, especially when said character isn't necessarily Japanese by ethnicity, as is the case with this game. Meaning... that character doesn't exist except as given life by the actor, script, and director, so there's no "natural" language they should be speaking.

While you may think that my argument is only true in some cases, anime among other things is the best proof that it's actually true in *most* cases.

Do you think I perceive Thancred as Japanese just because I prefer him in the Japanese version? Thancred is a Lominsan regardless of what language he's presented in. It is his voice, his way of speaking and his personality quirks that make him Thancred for me. If any of those in any dub deviate from what I know about him, that is no longer Thancred to me. The same is true for all of the characters. The mockery that is made of some of them in the English makes me intensely dislike it, especially in the case of a character such as Midgarsormr who loses all semblance of a personality and instead becomes a stereotype. Just so you understand me correctly, this is where the strength of the Japanese version lies in FFXIV: all of the characters feel and sound natural and you can lose yourself in the story and completely forget that they're speaking in Japanese. Everything that needs to be explained is, there are no loose ends that leave you wondering what the heck is going on like with the English Midgarsormr, and cliffhangers actually make sense and are understood as such.

And again, while it is true that a translation and foreign dub may be a violation of the "original vision," the idea that it will always be and always be inferior is antiquated.

I never said translation was a violation of the original vision, at all. What I said was: a gross mistranslation does not properly convey the original intent of any given series, movie or whatever other media that it affects. If you change too much, it's no longer the same product even if the same name is on it. Though I mentioned Alphinaud as one of the best examples of a character who comes off as more annoying than he actually is in the English version, I can also cite the character quirks of Thancred that are more prevalent in the Japanese version and give the character more flavor. And of course, everyone knows about the mess that was the original presentation in English of Haurchefant. Using the term localization as an excuse to change context, for instance, is not all right, least of all when it only applies to the English version. All that localization means in that context is essentially Americanization.

A translation will absolutely always be inferior. It will never convey the same intent or give life to the characters in the same way. It will be changed to fit the context of the culture it's being translated for, so it will be inferior by default. *How* inferior is the real question though. I take Gundam Wing as one of the best examples of a really good English dub. It's not as good as the Japanese version, but for a dub, it's of quality and has good voice acting. As such, the Gundam Wing dub is not a great deal inferior to the Japanese version.

[Fenral]

Okay, but seriously Tenkuu, your posts are too long. It's a good thing you weren't here holding a gun to my head forcing me to read it, because you would be cleaning my brain off the wall right now.

[Frederick22]

Cilia dont bother. You know Tenkuu, he wants to have the last word always.

Don't act like you're better than me and doing me a favor by being here, because trust me, you're not.

Seriously you are going too far with this now. I think its very offensive what you said, by claiming you are the best of best in here.

[Hinoto-no-Ryuji]

I don't DISagree with the point Tenkuu is making; my SO plays in Japanese, and there is a noticeable difference in quality between the writing and voice acting of it and the English version, especially in 2.x. Heavensward has been better, but it still has its share of issues, mostly in that it's highly over-written in its localization. Those are just my thoughts on it, though. This is a bit beyond the "everything is better in its native language" discussion (something I agree with, but which is very complicated when it comes to a game like this, which features multiple writers and a bilingual vision); this is more like "the writing style employed by the Japanese version is preferable." Which is a subjective point, which means there is no right or wrong (well, okay, maybe in the 2.x voice acting department).

But man, Tenkuu, don't be so antagonistic and defensive. Your posts ARE noticeably longer than most on the site. Maybe try to condense, to state your points a bit more succinctly, to address multiple points in a single paragraph, and to maybe not be so condescending when somebody remarks on it.

[Cilia]

Cilia dont bother. You know Tenkuu, he wants to have the last word always.

Nope, I'm doing this! And since I'm not allowed to acknowledge my own foolishness for doing so... Gonna try and be brief again.

I agreed with you, didn't I, that the voice actors are not the ones to blame? ... There will rarely if ever be a discussion about the characters themselves in English; instead, the focus will usually be on the process itself.

English voice actors have fans who know them. Just because you personally dislike English voice work doesn't mean they don't have fans. Dismissing them is pretty disrespectful as well... to the fans as well as EN voice work in general.

There are interviews with English VAs about their characters. They do exist. I have seen them. Just because you haven't, or don't personally believe they exist, doesn't mean they don't. If you aren't interested in EN voice work, I wouldn't expect you to have.

Just checking, but are you seriously making a big distinction, character wise, between a psychotic moron and a psychotic clown? Because I'm pretty sure that "psychotic" is rather the key element here, and that seems to be the general consensus in all languages. See the difference between completely changing a character's personality and changing only certain aspects of it?

Yes, I am, because Kefka lacks the same popularity and memorability in Japan that he has in the West. He's a psycho in all languages, but the humor he added to the game in translations made him very endearing - to the point his Dissidia incarnation included the humor from the EN/PAL versions of VI his JP original did not have.

Scheduling is not really an excuse when work needs to be done, least of all if you want it to be done well. ... These have all clearly been observed in FFXIV and they are the reason why most fans do not rely on the English version for detailed explanations.

You're again assuming EN voice actors do not put their all into their performances. Kindly desist.

The fact that most JP voice recording is in Tokyo makes the scheduling much easier. Voice actors, regardless of country, generally migrate to places where they can advance their careers. It's just not as centralized outside of Japan, so scheduling can be impractical when a VA lives in, say, Toronto and the studio they're supposed to record at is in Texas.

Putting a personal spin into a translation isn't always a bad thing. Not always. This is, again, what made VI so memorable in the EN/PAL territories. I agree taking too many liberties can ruin the work, but I haven't seen anyone, except you, complaining at such length about how terrible it is the LOC team is taking too many liberties with XIV's translation. (Well, except for Waffles with G'raha, but let's not talk about that. It's got an entire topic that got Necro'd devoted to it, kinda.)

Of course there are bad performances in every language, but we're talking about an original Japanese work, so of course it's going to be better in Japanese. *And I implore you not to pretend that you haven't actually taken personal shots at me before. I may take some things personally, but I know how to read people. In fact, when you put on a fake face, that's when I can't read you through the falsehood. So be honest, that's all I ask.
As far as the actual quality of the Japanese performances go, it isn't just me that's in a position to judge it. Everyone has the ability to perceive emotion in voices and can tell when a performance sounds inauthentic. Not only that, but in fact, several other players have judged the English version's performances and found them lacking. Final note: the actual voice performance has nothing to do with the translation of the dialogue. I find both to be lacking in the English version for different reasons.

Not always. Dismissing the possibility... I'll get to that in a bit.

I've refrained from taking pot shots. I dislike doing so. If you lack fluency in a language, however, you are far from being in a position to judge the quality of voice work in said language. I'd never presume to be able to judge the quality of a German voice performance, for instance, despite the fact I do understand rudimentary German.

Are we talking about the same character here? ... Is that a good portrayal for an ancient dragon? I think not. And a good majority feel the same way.

Congratulations! You missed my point entirely. My feelings on the changes are irrelevant.

My point was that the changes to Midgardsormr between the JP and EN versions were done at Yoshi-P's behest. Yoshi-P, as in the director of the overall game. You are quite adamant on adhering to the "original intent" of the work - if Yoshi-P himself asked for the changes, is this a violation of the "original intent?!"

Let's be clear here: there are four different languages and four possible interpretations, but only the English version consistently takes sometimes extreme liberties with its translation. ... The English version has a tendency to be minimalist and dismissive, whereas the Japanese version generally tends to acknowledge everyone individually.

Difference does not equate to inferiority.

I never said you didn't understand them, I said that you didn't take them into consideration. We're *all* comparing the dubs to the original, but the difference with your argument is that you're trying to justify bad changes. The thing is, when you're bringing a Japanese property somewhere else, you still have to acknowledge that that's what it is: a Japanese property. You must retain the majority of its aesthetic otherwise you will inevitably not appeal to your target audience: those who are fans of Japanese properties. At least, unlike some English dubs, they didn't touch the music or outright cut out or change scenes. Even if you do not understand Japanese, or at least not fully, there are translations that exist, and there are also other versions where it's been made clear by fans who know this stuff better than us that the translation remained largely faithful to the original. As such, yes, you are in a position to judge which one is better: the one that is better is the one that explains what needs to be explained, doesn't take shortcuts, and doesn't omit important details. At this point, there are just so many things that are unclear in the English dub alone that fans have *needed* to turn to other versions for clarity. That's as clear an indication as any that the English dub is lacking.

I disagree. Utilizing translated text does not give you the full impact and experience, hence my refusal to rely on translated JP text. It can be useful for context, but personally I've found it to rarely be necessary.

... and given I don't listen to the JP dialogue... no, I'm not comparing the two. In fact if I do watch an original Japanese dub, I won't watch a foreign dub because I'll be too preoccupied with trying to compare the original performance to the foreign one. (Which seems to be part of your problem, to be honest.)

This is it. And yeah, I'm sure that it got better, but there are still changes being made that aren't necessary.

If you give it less time, of course it's going to be worse. And no, we're not judging it against its own language, because this is an evaluation of how well the English version holds up as a dub.

Thanks! If you acknowledge that it got better but still complain about how it's not faithful enough to the JP release, well... dunno what to say. Take it up with Ferne.

No offense, but in making an ignorant claim like that it's the same career-wise both in Japan and outside of it, you're the one who's sounding like, and I quote, a "nerd trying to make themselves feel cooler than they actually are". You're the one who cares about how cool they sound, all I care about is how much I can enjoy the game. I don't enjoy FFXIV with the English voice acting, so I don't play it with it. When the performances don't sound wooden, they tend to sound overacted. I can even refer you to a very recent example: I listened to Aymeric in the English trailer, and I knew what scene his lines were from, and I could not detect anywhere near the same amount of feeling as in the Japanese version, where you could practically hear his voice breaking as he talked about Estinien.

I... never said I cared about how cool they sound. Nor do I consider myself cool at all. I'm actually extremely, extremely uncool, for lots of reasons - my cowardice, apathy, and dispassion, first and foremost.

Enjoy the game in whatever language you like; I really don't care.

EN Aymeric is going to be different from JP Aymeric, who is different from FR Aymeric and also DE Aymeric. Is there an ES Aymeric? Ahh... anyway, they're all going to sound different because they're played by different actors, each of which have a different interpretation of his character. Even if you gave them all the same script, director, and recording circumstances, they'd still come out different. You remember I said you would be a terrible theater critic? This is why - you're too focused on how faithful a performance is to the original to enjoy and appreciate other interpretations. With theater, which has had some plays in production for literally thousands of years, who's to say how faithful a modern portrayal of, say, Antigone is to the "original intent and vision?"

Preemtping the "that's different!" I know is likely coming... no, it's not. No matter if it's on stage, in front of a camera, or behind a microphone, acting is acting.

Why else? American movies are translated to Japanese for the majority of the population that likely don't understand a language that is at least partially, if not fully, foreign to them. Why ask a question that you already know the answer to? As for Kingdom Hearts, I don't know it, so can't speak as to it. Also, please don't confuse Japanese properties made specifically with an originally English track with those that are made with originally Japanese ones. Now *that*, if anything, is comparing apples to oranges. At the same time, keep in mind that marketing and your target audience both play a large part in exactly how you handle the release of products. Oh and the one thing I do know about Kingdom Hearts is that it is not an exclusively Japanese production, but rather a collaboration between Japan and America. The fact that you're trying to undermine a valid argument about the value of an original product by ignoring this fact, and are instead using subterfuge to try to pretend that it's something other than what it actually is, proves to me how desperate you are at this point. Final note: all cultures appropriate some aspects of others, or are you now going to try to pretend that all anime involves purely Japanese culture? As such, it's hardly a surprise when some elements of another language are used. In some instances, English may sound more "cool" to the Japanese, or may simply be more appropriate depending on the context. So why can't *you* accept the value of an original foreign property in its original language?

Kingdom Hearts is a collaborative franchise between Disney and Square Enix(!). (Earnestly surprised you don't know this...) It's generally released in Japan first, then in EN/PAL with a few bells and whistles, then a Final Mix in Japan with said bells and whistles and then some... and the EN voice track. (Authentic Disney voices, and all that.)

Not really sure what you're getting at with the rest...? I veered off into a tangent, missed the mark. "Productions" and blah blah blah. My mistake.

*I* can't accept the value of a production in its original language? Dear oh dear... please wait just a moment.

It really isn't. ... That is another reason why it makes the perfect example.

I never said or even insinuated that English is better. My point was it's used, which is proof against even the Japanese wanting all their productions to be purely in Japanese (and thus them putting some value on foreign languages). You see the same phenomenon pretty much everywhere else - foreign languages are used for their exotic feel.

You're right - music sets the general mood. Hence, changing it is quite different from changing character voices and lines.

You think yourself good at turning an argument around, but sadly, you're not. You didn't use "nerd" as a self-deprecating dig, you used it to insult those who appreciate the value of an original foreign work in its original language. You're only now calling yourself one because you've been called out on using it improperly. Nice try though.

Is that so?!? Okay, okay. Let's do this.

You remember I mentioned Kill la Kill!? It's an anime I've only watched in Japanese, and I enjoyed it to the extent my signature is rife with shout-outs to it. An English dub does exist, but see above for why I won't watch it. Anyway, here's the voice cast for key characters, recited from memory:

Ryuko Matoi: Ami Koshimizu
Satsuki Kiryuin: Ryoka Yuzuki
Mako Mankanshoku: Aya Suzuki
Senketsu: Toshihiko Seki

Ira Gamagoori: Tetsu Inada
Nonon Jakazure: Mayumi Shintani (nani sore?!)
Uzu Sanageyama: Noboyuki Hiyama (Hey! Listen!)
Houko Inumuta: Hiroyuki Yoshino

Ragyo Kiryuin: Romi Park (yes, really!)

... still convinced I can't appreciate a production in its original foreign language? I'll provide more characters.

Still convinced me using the term "nerd" in a derogatory fashion isn't so ludicrously hypocritical nobody should take it seriously? I'll provide the same characters with their English actors and actresses, even though I've never even watched the English dub of the show.

Don't confuse accents with dialects and differences in levels of formalities.

...

I don't know the anime you're talking about, but if the character you're describing is meant to sound like an American, that's a different story. He may have been given an accent as the Japanese perceive it, but certainly there have been many examples in the past of badly rendered American accents of all sorts in the Japanese version of any given anime.

I'm fully aware of the difference between accents, dialects, and formalities in Japanese, thank you. (I know the basics and a few loanwords I've picked up from anime - that's about it, though.)

Kaneo Takarada is from Kill la Kill! and is effectively a caricature of people from Osaka (not to mention is its effective ruler). He has the proper accent, dialect, presents an insanely greedy facade, and uses money for everything (except TP... and maybe even that). (He's not quite so simple, though.) ... so, to say people aren't reduced to stereotypes outside of English accents...

Trust me, I don't need your haughty attitude and generally try to ignore it for the sake of responding to the actual content of your argument, but when you're being purposely antagonistic, I *will* fight back.

I can be haughty and antagonistic if you like. I generally think I'm putting on a pretty joshing attitude, but if you want me to get serious, I *will*. In fact, I'm about to do so quite shortly.

Maybe you've seen the recent meme going around on Tumblr about Oprah only becoming famous in her 30s? The gist of that meme was that you have to fail/be fired before you can become who you're meant to be.

I don't frequent Tumblr or any social media (I have a Facebook I use to play Angry Birds and little else). I'm also not a firm believer in anything being "meant to be / happen." (Let's refrain from getting into that, shall we?)

While you may think that my argument is only true in some cases, anime among other things is the best proof that it's actually true in *most* cases.

How so?

Do you think I perceive Thancred as Japanese just because I prefer him in the Japanese version? ... Everything that needs to be explained is, there are no loose ends that leave you wondering what the heck is going on like with the English Midgarsormr, and cliffhangers actually make sense and are understood as such.

Please refer back to my above mention on how and why you would be a terrible theater critic. It really does come back to this.

You perceive Thancred as Japanese because you dislike the baroque EN script, subtle characterization changes that arise as a result of translation (even though they are done at Yoshi-P's behest or with his approval), and are utterly convinced anything that doesn't closely mirror if not perfectly imitate Yuuichi Nakamura's portrayal of Thancred is inferor. Apply to the entire rest of all non-JP versions. Did I get it all?

A translation will absolutely always be inferior. It will never convey the same intent or give life to the characters in the same way. It will be changed to fit the context of the culture it's being translated for, so it will be inferior by default.

OK, time to get serious like I said. I'm tossing aside the half-joshing attitude 100% to the end.

This. Just this. This is exactly, exactly what I rail against in this kind of argument. I absolutely loathe and despise this attitude. "It's not the same as the original so it's inferior!" So what?! It's impossible to be as good as or better than the original just because it isn't the original?! That's complete and utter nonsense!

You remember I was explaining the Giorgio A. Tsukolas image to you? About how no matter how wild and outlandish something someone claims is possible it's always technically true? The same is true here, and it's plausible to boot!

You wanna enjoy the Japanese version of the game? Go ahead; like I said, I really don't care. But do not, do not, claim a translation and dub is absolutely inferior no matter what. That absolutism is what I'm challenging, not you personally. This isn't the first time I've gotten into this kind of argument, so don't think it's because I've got some strange infatuation with antagonizing you.

P.S.
If three other people are also telling you your posts are too long... you just might want to think about it. That is taking a personal shot at you.

[Laili]

Just as a random interjection amidst this sea of quotes, there are exceptions to the "everything is better in its native language rule. Dubbed Cowboy Bebpp is superior to the Japanese version, for example. Granted it's a rare exception, but they do exist.

[Hinoto-no-Ryuji]

Just as a random interjection amidst this sea of quotes, there are exceptions to the "everything is better in its native language rule. Dubbed Cowboy Bebpp is superior to the Japanese version, for example. Granted it's a rare exception, but they do exist.

Ah, but, see, a recent rewatch had both myself and a friend thinking quite the opposite (for all that the show gains from having a wider variety of regional accents in English, the Japanese voice actors are quite a bit more polished and skilled - which is saying a lot, considering that the English actors aren't exactly shabby themselves).

But this just proves the point - the whole exercise is highly subjective when all these elements get factored in. I may prefer Japanese Bebop, but the sentiment that the English better is hardly rare. In fact, I have some friends who will always default to English dubs, because no matter how good the Japanese may be - no matter how much greater the nuance, or how how masterful the performances - they simply don't have the familiarity with the language to pick up on that stuff, so it's all moot.

Anyways, rather than "everything is better in its original language", I think instead it's actually more "everything is purer in its original language" - that is, if you really want to analyze a work, to dig deep into the meaning buried behind its words and the intent of the author, you need to experience it in the context originally intended (due to the inherent changes necessitated by translation and localization). I think that's true for most media, and while FFXIV is more less developed in equal parts Japanese and English, the somewhat obtuse nature of the English version makes the Japanese more valuable for analysis (if you're fluent, anyways). But even that is only barely - FFXIV may be somewhat unwieldy in English, but it's not like meaning itself is outright lost, if you know how to parse Koji's idiom. We're actually uniquely privileged in how closely our localizer is able to work with his Japanese counterpart, and what that also means is that any particular major changes are more likely than not mandated by those in charge (see: Haurchefant, patch titles like "Revenge of the Hoard"). As such, saying that the English version's changes somehow betray the spirit of the author is pretty...well, WRONG, honestly.

So, yeah. The primary value of "original language analysis" is more or less a non-issue in current FFXIV, and everything else is deeply subjective.

[Theodric]

It's a matter of personal preference. Personally I find the English voice acting and writing as of 3.0 to be incredible and easily similar in quality to FFXII's voice acting and writing which, again, was great across the board. With the possible exception of Vaan and Penelo. The idea that the Japanese version is superior is often ridiculous - especially since it's often spouted by those with an obsession with Japan in general or, more laughably, they barely understand what is being said at all and attribute their own interpretations of how awesome and exotic it sounds.

Final Fantasy XII, Final Fantasy Tactics (War of the Lions) and Vagrant Story each had similarly grand English writing - and were highly praised for it. So can we stop pretending as if the style came from nowhere?

[Cilia]

The English dialogue is rather... baroque, to put it mildly. It's certainly not friendly to people who picked up English as a second language; hell, even people whose native language is English may have trouble with it at first (I had to look up what "anon" meant when they kept using it - I'd figured it out of context, but still wanted confirmation - and I consider myself to have a pretty good vocabulary). That said while it can be difficult to grasp at times, the baroque idiom provides it with a good deal of class you simply don't see in most productions of this sort. Between that and the accents (after they were rendered properly and consistently), it makes you feel like this is a sort of medieval time.

Now, I'm gonna be honest. The EN 2.0 version was bad. Like, really bad. (Except for Richard Epcar's Gaius - he never fails to deliver. Except that time they had him try and match the ham of Billy Zane's Ansem in flashbacks to the original game in Kingdom Hearts II. That didn't really work out well.) Even as a fan of a lot of the EN 2.x voice cast, I acknowledge this. It improved a great deal over 2.x, though, and I was thoroughly enjoying the growth of their performances. The cast getting changed almost in its entirety for 3.x was a bit annoying because I'd come to recognize their 2.x voices as their "real" voices and had to remind myself there is no "real" voice for the characters until I'd become accustomed to the new ones.

... so, yeah, a lot of the script and characterization changes are likely either done at Yoshi-P's behest or with his approval. So while some people prefer JP Thancred, for instance, complaining about how EN Thancred isn't exactly the same is... ignoring both this and a principle of acting. There is no "right" way to portray Thancred because Thancred doesn't actually exist. With some programs there is input in varying levels from the original producers as to how they want the dub to be - it's certainly not the norm, but almost positively happening here - so while anything other than the JP portrayals of the characters may not be the "original intent" and not "give life to the characters in the same way"... who's to say the producer didn't have a different intent for the foreign version, or that the alternate portrayals by the foreign actors are inferior because they aren't just like the originals?

... I really do try and stay away from purism and absolutism on any issue. Never sits well with me, y'know? Here's a cat getting brain freeze.

It's much funnier with the sound.

[Rocl]

Eh? Do you guys not read Shakespeare in school anymore? Not knowing "anon"? smh smh