Players Who Don't pull their weight.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

In light of the fact that the difficulty of content will stay generally the same throughout this game's lifespan, by which I mean there'll be very difficult yet presumably rewarding (for the sense of shared accomplishment, if not just the gear rewards) endgame options, but all mandatory and some optional content is feasibly cleared even if some people have to be pretty much dragged by their ankles: Why are you passionate about this?

Why care so much about distracted, dozing, fat-fingered, easily panicked, clueless, or simply new people in content that doesn't really require them to be much better, when they don't even come close to infringing on your EX/savage-raiding space?

Bad players don't matter.

This is a video game. A hobby. It is not real life, where poor decisions and incompetence tend to have, y'know, consequences.

Should everyone be obligated to play this game "right" in order to obtain enjoyment from it?

There are certainly other MMOs that have openly catered to such "dedicated" mindsets. They were more common many years ago, before certain companies caught on to the fact that people don't appreciate substantial punishment for failure in their subscription product, which they expect to actually fulfill the description of "game", and whaddaya know, that means more subscribers, which Square-Enix has every interest in obtaining and retaining.

There will never be a high bar to entry.

The majority of content will always be accessible to the most people possible.

Square-Enix will do nothing to change this, because they know what kind of game this needs to be in order to sustain it.

Now if you'll pardon me, I'm going to get back to my Dark Souls level 1 run. Ornstein & Smough can't touch this naked backflipping club-wielding zombie.

Is the community to forever remain stagnate then? You propose perpetual mediocrity, which in turn will attribute the very same lack of sustainability you claim otherwise. There but needs be a balance between reasonably challenging and Savage. Why not have content that encourages improvement? Or shall we continue to play sports without keeping score, lest we hurt people's feelings? A video game or hobby is not an excuse. Yes, the game will always somewhat cater to the lowest common denominator, that doesn't mean it cannot challenge them to some extent. Look no further than Weeping City. People complained, yet eventually they learned. No one is demanding Savage dungeons. Just content that does have consequences if you're content simply using a Heavy Thrust combo and little else.

But we HAVE content for the different playstyles and skill levels. Savage is made for the hardcore, challenge seeking players, and 4-mans are made for low gear/skill players. That's why so many people are arguing against this thread, because a hardcore player is going into entry level, easy-mode content and complains that people aren't playing well enough.

Duty finder is a tool that puts us together with strangers to give us easier access to dungeon runs, but we have the choice to bring our own people if we require a certain skill level. If you use the DF tool to enter content made for casuals and even bad players (4-mans), it's not fair to complain when you run into them there.

But it those very same entry level players who then complain Weeping City is too hard or Nidhogg EX has too many mechanics. We desperately lack enough midcore level content. The last few batch of dungeons-- Anti Tower specifically -- have been so laughably easy, you barely needed to heal. These are dungeons we'll be running for months to cap lore. So there needs be a middle ground of some sort between painfully easy and extremely hard. What I would like to see by 4.0 at the latest is a shift back to three dungeons, with at least one scaled to challenge players. Not to any absurd degree, but enough you wouldn't even think of big pulls.

[Seraphix2407]

But what you're actually calling "improving attitude" is really just "stop giving a shit about doing well at what you're doing." I guess I could be as oblivious as this DRK, but I'm not interested in Idiocracy becoming a reality.

The sad part about this is, many in this thread support this attitude too. They say it's fine and if we try to help others we are either elitist or toxic, dat logic lol.

Bad players don't matter.

This is a video game. A hobby. It is not real life, where poor decisions and incompetence tend to have, y'know, consequences.

Should everyone be obligated to play this game "right" in order to obtain enjoyment from it?

ENJOYMENT!!! That's the keyword. You really make it sound like only 1 person out of 4/8/24 should have fun while the rest has to adap to 1 person. Ofc this game doesn't have consequences if you are bad, you get carried and you just move along with it. It's fine to have fun but ONLY IF EVERYONE HAVE FUN!
I want to enjoy this game too, but bad people make it look like a job for me because I have to play for myself and another person at once, where did common respect go? Or did people just turn into selfish ego bastards and cry all day if they don't get things on a silver plate?

If people have your attitude around me, I would never help them with any content at all. Why? Why should I spend time on someone who doesn't appreciate I help them but just sits there and do nothing, like not even trying at all, like many people don't.

[Klamor]

All of this...

I'd like to go back to when we had dungeons like Pharos Sirius before it got nerfed into the ground. The mechanics were awesome, fresh, innovative, and actually required thought outside of the box. First boss, high DPS on the boss was killer because the Hounds would overwhelm the party. Even the third boss, the Burn-boss was cool in its own regard, and was in a way just a glorified trash pull that was still FUN! And the Siren was simply great. I'm sorry that it showed how most of the healers of that time couldn't handle having to prioritize who to heal at any given time due to the Song debuff, but that's exactly the kind of things that are needed in content today.

[Ignnis]

Hope they keep weeping city as is, it really does weed out the good/decent from the bad. Normally in dungeons I don't mind if people just do an average job, basic rotation, no one dies, maybe a mechanic failed once or twice, who cares, we finish and leave. It's when you get those special people that are either dumb or don't care. The ones that don't follow any logical rotation, that do the absolute bare minimum and end up doubling or tripling run speed. I've had blms that just fire I to build astral - transpose - blizzard I till transpose off CD - continue or mch that don't use turrets, hotshot, dots etc. I have many examples of these kinds of people (at lvl 60) and its those people that make me cry in corners.

Oh and when you explain using auto translate and get ignored, love that.

[Asmodai]

Should everyone be obligated to play this game "right" in order to obtain enjoyment from it?

No, they should not. Then again why is everyone else obligated to carry them? We, should be able to kick them without reservation from the party.

[Warghoul570]

Can't believe some of the junk in reading here in this thread. For starters you want people to " learn how to play" yet want to kick them and give them a penalty to keep them out of doing dungeons. and their suppose to learn how??? You kind of need to run the dungeons and raids in order to learn them plus what motivation are you giving them keep learning the dungeon/raid if your only going to put them down and disrespect them. All your doing a is causing a quicksand effect. They maybe fusterated by how bad their doing despite trying to begin with then might make more mistakes trying to appease some snob. Don't get me wrong if you try to help someone and they give you grief then they deserve what they get.And to the guy that suggested giving electo shocks to people they don't think are playing well: joke or not your a special kind of scumbag for suggesting something like that. This a game for Christ sake.

[Seraphix2407]

Depends on attitude. Would take low end player with good attitude over bleeding edge raider with bad attitude.

I rather take a good raider with shit attitude than a lazy person who gets carried in every freaking fight in the game, then cries if they dont get a nerf. Because a raider with shit attitude wouldn't take shit if people were never bad in the first place.

[RiceisNice]

Depends on attitude. Would take low end player with good attitude over bleeding edge raider with bad attitude.

I personally wouldn't say that it's a good attitude if the player in question is oblivious to basic mechanics that's given to you as early as level 15...at level 60. It starts to become a burden to the party and shows a lack of consideration.

Edit : tat typo.

[Mattelot]

Are people still insisting that they're carrying people? News flash again, you don't carry people in DF and if the person is in your FC raid and not performing to your holier than thou standards, remove them.

I can't believe all these pages of people who insist on dictating how random people play video games.

[Seraphix2407]

Are people still insisting that they're carrying people? News flash again, you don't carry people in DF and if the person is in your FC raid and not performing to your holier than thou standards, remove them.

If my sell group kills adds faster with same amount of gear other people have in niddhogg extreme/normal mode with 3 dps vs 4, you know one of those dps got carried, why? Because we would still be avaible to kill it as fast. So yup they do get carried. Put 4 people with same mindset being low on damage or heals, I bet you they gonna wipe. Put 3 great dps with 1 bad one, they will win it because 3 people put effort. Ps Mat, I have 3 friends of mine on levi and not to sound rude, but they all said you are one of the horrible ones and I shouldn't pay attention to you, but hey you just got it. No seriously tho, don't bang your head againt's the wall, we all got once carried just not often