Players Who Don't pull their weight.

[Kaeoni]

As objectively as possible I read and think to myself...

when a player refuses to improve over months and many tell them and not only 1 person, guess who's fault that is? Not the douchebag elitist person you speak of, but the person who just sits there and want everything free.

Question 1: How do you know the person in your DF has refused to improve their playstyle for months, and that multiple people have tried to address this in a kind manner to them?
Question 2: If you know this person personally from your server and have noticed they just want to be carried, Why are you continuing to invite them to your group?

I'm not saying it's impossible for these types of people to exist. But you either know, or.. well you don't. In the case of you knowing, then you're willingly subjecting yourself to this person. You've made the choice to take them on, so the only complaint should be about your own ability to make decisions with your own time and sanity.
And then If you don't know. how and why is it justifiable to punish these people. It's why punishable systems shouldn't be in player hands, Or in the hands of an autonomous system.

As for how to handle this, Vote kick people and play with people whom you deem worthy. You've answered your own problem.

If people wanna be lazy and ungreatful they can find their own group who wanna do that sort of thing or simply get better and get accpeted in good groups.

You have no control over who you're with or the ability to force people to abide by your above comment which i do agree with. So control what it is you can control. But complaining about something you've willingly thrust yourself into, which would be a Duty Finder with randoms, and then complaining about said people? Well Technically you brought this on yourself. You picked Duty Finder. You Selected join. You pressed all the necessary buttons required of you and you understand the circumstances and possible consequences of your actions yes? Then who exactly is it do we blame? Certainly not ourselves. We, the masters of our reality are never wrong. No. It's The other guy. It's because THEY decided to join OUR Duty Finder. But Wait. Didn't you know or think about the possible implications of your actions? How this situation could have negatively affected you? You understand the rules of this virtual contract, no? I certainly do not condone the people who want to be carried or are lazy. but you understood the possibility of someone like that joining yes? If not. Well you certainly know now.

Which brings me to this...

Lets ignore the run with friends argument, as it stands your friends are always available. Times do not always match up. We have lives and dont always have the ability to play together.

*Ahem*.... So...
I can see this working for Savage. Maybe. But then if you're taking Savage seriously, you have a Static so... Problem solved...

But everything else?

You don't have friends who are on who you can group up with who are always on when you are and so that invalidates the idea of "go with friends"? If you have friends who don't play when you play, How exactly did you make those online friends. I can understand Real Life friends, or those who's schedules have changed... But are we pretending we've met our friend limit and we're no longer able to make any more friends? Off the top of my head we can have up to 200 people on our friends list and we're going to actually sit here and pretend to ourselves that out of 200 people, we can't align the stars and have 3-7 people get together for 15-40 Minutes? If this is your situation and you can't play with 200 of your always offline friends, then you should probably make some room for more friends... Then we have our Free Company, and Linkshells....

Like really? REALLY? you can't find competent people on your server to play with to eliminate these problems entirely? Are you sure you're not the lazy ones? It's pretty easy to sit on this forum, complain and suggest a punishment for people who don't play the way you expect them to isn't it? You don't have to do a damn thing. Everyone else has to do something about it. Not you though. How convenient it must be.

Lets lie to ourselves further that this is an actual problem we can't actively avoid RIGHT NOW, by actually putting in a few more button/key strokes more than simply Que'ing up Duty Finder. Yeah that'll make all our problems disappear. Let's not take anything into our own hands or anything and make our own experience any better.

I don't mean to go old-school, but back in my day (FFxi) We actually had to, get this -make friends- Pretty crazy right? There was no Duty Finder. I surrounded myself with groups of like minded individuals and erased any doubt in my mind that someone couldn't perform their job. AND LIKE, 20 PEOPLE PLAYED THAT GAME. Don't try to tell me you can't meet 3-7 people you can play this game with with all the resources available to allow you to do so. It might be a bit more extra effort than you currently put in to ask people to join you or help you out, than Queing up for a Duty finder. But in the end you will 100% of the time save yourself time and have far more fun. But then again, you wouldn't have anything to complain about. And I'm not saying people who are complaining here are like this... But some people aren't happy unless they have something to complain about.

How about take your life into your own hands and stop being a backseat driver? What are you a Beta Male/Female? You Act like the Alpha. How about prove it.

[Seraphix2407]

I play only roulettes With friends beside trials. So for me its not issue. However it is for everyone Else lazy is the New standard No?

[Altena]

I think a lot of it has to come from the way that iLV plays a part in dungeons...

*Slow clap*...

Bang on the money with this post. Well said.

I actually want to highlight a few things that you said so that others didn't miss it.

...You can ignore mechanics, you don't have to activate cool downs...

This has always been a huge problem in this game for me. At the start of the patch when new content is released, like you were saying - the content starts out fine normally (even at the start of every new release of the 2x 4-man dungeons) people take a lot more damage than they are used to from plowing through the previous 2 dungeons at the end of the patch. This is kind of expected to an extent but it quickly becomes a non-issue and you're back to pulling 100 mobs and AoEing them down.

....Meanwhile, I think there should be a reduction of mobs in places to compensate for the time it will take. Say for snowcloak, there's no need for all those trash until the first gate. They want to punish us for AoE'ing more than so many mobs, yet put us in situations where that's optimal at that point. Give us the trio of guys at a certain point and have one of the bigger ones have an Endgame / Boss like ability..mix that up with everything else, it would hopefully push peole

I wanted to highlight this whole paragraph, mostly because I have had a similar opinion from the very beginning of 2.0... Trash mob's abilities mean absolutely nothing. They are just a red telegraph on the ground that you need to avoid.

I would kill for the increase in difficulty on trash mobs in dungeons and reduce the shear number of mobs. Throw an oldschool Coincounter in there that deals boss-like damage with no telegraphs.. Add in a non-telegraphed Chimera that forces you to pay attention to breaths and voices... Make the trash worth the attention, and people in general would be less face grindy through all of this content.

I understand that 4-man dungeons should be "accessible" as they are just the tome grindy dungeons but it doesn't mean you have to simply throw a whole lot of open world mobs in a dungeon, give them a bit more HP and call it a day. Give us "trash" that is not truly "trash"...

Remember those rock golems in Turn 1 & 3 in coil? They could wreck your party if you didn't tank them properly & if you weren't paying attention. (Sure that was coil... However they are considered "trash".)
That random coin counter in Snowcloak? (he is rather easy and has low HP even with appropriate iLvl)... Add more bosses that create an impact and actually forces people to focus..

Hell, if they are feeling super creative, randomize these "big trash mobs" so you don't always get the same mob..

There are a number of ways they could make the 4-man stuff more interesting over and above the existing formula of "Trash > boss > trash > boss > trash > boss".. This is in my opinion the real reason why people "don't care" in 4-man dungeons.. It's because they don't have to.

[Archaell]

...

Weren't you advocating positive approach to people in DF few pages back? And now you are condescending and mocking Sipherous for his ability to make friends? Calling him lazy and stuff? What if the dude has some social disorder and so his ability to make friends is limited?

Telling individuals that they should stop using DF is not solution to anything... DF is for everybody meaning even for the people who complain on the forum and they have right to complain for being exploited by people who waste their time. There is absolutely no reason that DF should stay a feature only for the underperforming players. DF is part of the game, everyone is entitled to use it...

Yet not all the players should play together. The people do not work like that. There should seriously be something done about DF to improve it, at least more options when selecting the duty instead of just one tick. The Raid Finder with it's options to select phases and clear/training is a good step forward.

[Waterdeep]

I like how different the whole "bad/lazy player in DF" approach is between cultures. I am playing on a japanese server -speaking the language, mind you- and the whole mentor system is a nice sign of how Japanese want to tackel the issue: Help your fellow men. Give them advice, encourage them and don't be negative. At the same time the learner is expected to give their best and have a certain degree of respect. Senpai - Kouhai if you want.

This is virtually unkown to the western playerbase. Mentor system is more or less just some kind of ePeen extension, bad people should be punished or virtually removed from the good peoples experience and people are comming up with the most ludicrous people rating systems ever. Meanwhile every bit of advice is immidiatly seens as attack on someones character and people throw a hissy fit.

Also, I absolutely love the tags for this thread. "Elite players matter more". They absolutely don't. They are a minority a.k.a. not making SE the amount of money the casual playerbase does.

Makes me happy that the devs are not reading the NA forum.

[Seraphix2407]

Why do people still call people elitist? Ever thought about people who log on for 5hours a week plays better than majority? Are those elitist? I have a Word for bad people too then, just not gonna say it because it would make them explode how correct i am.

[Eldevern]

I'm not the last to consider there are sometimes really bad players BUT, you can't judge other players based on your own expectations and interests in games. Back in old gaming time, there were easy, normal hard modes in games. Some people were seeking challenges and were always playing hard mode and some other just wanted to spend "relaxation"/free time without any kind of challenge and were playing normal mode and even easy. This is NOT lazyness, just an other kind of interest. Some are always looking for challenges, some other are looking for some kind of relaxation while playing. Sometimes... they are just not playing their main.

I suggest you to keep that in mind.

If you consider they are egoist, you are too. There never is only one way to play a game. I agree there is a minimum, but you are not legit to expect they play like you (or like you think you play your game. We NEVER are always perfect, we are pretty far from perfection. Did you notice that real hardcore players in professionnals teams really really really rarely -if never- complain about other players game style? If they want to play real hardcore, they have a team to do so, if not, they are not the last to play and envoy playing casualy).

Finally, too often, the most players who argue against other players in dungeon are more watching what other are doing rather than playing there own f***ing job and the most fun, you kick them, everything is going fine after.

[Kaeoni]

Snip

I love those Ideas!

I think this type of thing which forces players to actively engage and deal with situations could really help, Especially If implemented and experienced while the player is still learning to enforce good habits!

Weren't you advocating positive approach to people in DF few pages back? And now you are condescending and mocking Sipherous for his ability to make friends? Calling him lazy and stuff? What if the dude has some social disorder and so his ability to make friends is limited?

I'll start with this. Highlighting the main word from that piece i wrote below.

As objectively as possible I read and think to myself...

I've said this 50 times it feels like... =/
If you're going to complain about other random people you have no control over. Then you'd probably have a more positive outlook on this game if you made your own groups. Is this false? If you're constantly complaining about other people in DF and you're distraught because of constantly being paired up with people who just aren't pulling their weight then is making your own group the wrong answer? MMOs are social experiences. Massive Multiplayer Online Game. If you don't understand that playing an MMO means you're Online, in a multiplayer environment... I dunno what else to say...

And for the record I'm not mocking anyone. Maybe it sounds like it from the way I type. But I'm pretty light hearted. I'm suggesting answers to questions. Answers that currently exist in the game right now. We have the ability to fix these problems. And If you choose not to fix them then yes. I apologize, but that is by definition lazy. And It's a shame because the amount of fun you could behaving right now at this very second could be easily multiplied. I have ADHD. Social anxiety comes with it. I don't take medication for it probably because I'm an idiot and I want to suffer with my problem. But I don't believe in taking medication for it because I want to overcome it even if it is something i'll have for the rest of my life. I give it everything I've got, every day. Most people don't have an excuse. But I don't use my problem as a crutch. I struggle desperately to better myself. and people see that and are receptive. Naturally you have to take my word for it. But at the end of the day I can sleep knowing what I did, at least by my own set of morals was right. I have 16 friends on my FL, a Free Company full of about 20 pretty active members, 2 Hunt LS's including an LS I made for people I like to talk to because /tells are annoying and full of RMT crap and It just clogs up my chat screen. haha. I mean I'm far below what I could have? I still do DF a lot of the time, but I usually take 2-3 people with me into everything cuz we like to hang out.

Telling individuals that they should stop using DF is not solution to anything... DF is for everybody meaning even for the people who complain on the forum and they have right to complain for being exploited by people who waste their time. There is absolutely no reason that DF should stay a feature only for the underperforming players. DF is part of the game, everyone is entitled to use it...

Yet not all the players should play together. The people do not work like that. There should seriously be something done about DF to improve it, at least more options when selecting the duty instead of just one tick. The Raid Finder with it's options to select phases and clear/training is a good step forward.

I didn't suggest people should stop using DF. I suggested it to people who are fed up. I can understand that. I really can. But is complaining going to do anything about it? And is there a way to free yourself from this pain currently in the game? Well... I'm sorry for saying for the 51st time... there is... Make your own groups....

What some people here have suggested, Is putting a little yellow star on peoples jackets letting everyone know who these people are. Because marginalization of a group of people has never proven a problem in the past right? An extreme example, I know... But As I've said in the past. We the players, and an autonomous system can't accurately and are not entitled to rating DF people based off 10-40 minutes of primarily non-verbal contact.

[The_Last_Dragoon]

This is coming from someone who has a long history of tanking both in FFXIV and many other MMOs, but I personally hate tanks who feel the need to punish the whole party because their job as a tank isn't all wrapped up in a nice little bow. I'm talking about the type of person who will kick another player for doing aoe instead of attacking only his target or who won't pick up adds that get accidentally pulled (which is usually from the tank's bad positioning of the enemies in the first place). The only reason why Tanks specifically feel so entitled in this game are because of their short wait times, meaning that they don't care if the Duty fails or you kick them because they don't have to wait for anything.

Just recently I had an ordeal happen in Aetherochemical Research Facility where the tank would keep very little aoe aggro and tried to pull very few enemies. During the first pull, the other dps in our party was confused as to why the tank didn't continue and accidentally ran into the wall of 3 mechs that spawn. Not only did this tank refuse to take these adds from the dps, but he didn't even re-aggro 2 of the initial enemies when the healer stole aggro from him. This event essentially repeated itself until we got to Regula Van Hydrus, at which point he went eternally afk, making it so that we 3-manned the boss while waiting for the 15 min initial wait to lift so we could kick him.

Of course, there's also the type of tank who doesn't really know how to, but when you try to help them in earnest, they spit in your face. I remember a problem I had with a player some time ago where he was playing a Gladiator (not a Paladin) in Dzemael Darkhold and he had on Disciple of the Land gear. While the first part of the dungeon and even the first boss is completely doable with those shortcomings, it became increasingly evident that he didn't even use flash to hold aoe aggro. Upon informing him about the Job quests and telling him that using flash will help him hold aggro, he started cursing at me and telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about. He then proceeded to do absolutely nothing (not that him auto-attacking was reallying doing anything) and follow us around presumably trying to get me kicked. The party as a whole was wiser than that and we eventually kicked him, but unfortunately after doing so, he was able to instantly re-join 3 times, essentially ending our chances of finding a legitimate tank that could complete the Duty.

I'm all for teaching new players how to play or trying to help players who are struggling with their roles, but when in a Duty you must participate, and intentionally failing to do so in order to cause others grief is a reportable offense.

[Waterdeep]

Telling individuals that they should stop using DF is not solution to anything... DF is for everybody meaning even for the people who complain on the forum and they have right to complain for being exploited by people who waste their time. There is absolutely no reason that DF should stay a feature only for the underperforming players. DF is part of the game, everyone is entitled to use it...

DF is part of the game, everyone is entitled to use it...

And you want to shut people out that don't preform well enough for your standarts? Well, by my standart you should be labelled as utter trash if you don't:

a)use HQ food
b)use HQ pots on cooldown
c)execute your rotation to 100% efficiency all the time
d)your damage is not within 1% of the top logs as any class
e)you have a voice comm set up
f)have absolute BiS gear
g)have all classes at 60 and fully geared so you can play to class synergy to the max
h)a decent latency. I will not waste 10 seconds of my time if your latency screws MY experience over
i)fluently in english, german,french and japanese to assure comminucation is at an all time high
j)have no other obligations besides XIV for the time we are in a group, again MY time is precious
k)play the game at at least 60 fps seeing that you being slowed down by limited hardware makes the run last 20-40 seconds longer

And no, we will not introduce a system that has gradual 1-5 star rating system. Either you are playing at 110% or you are not. You are trash or you are not.

Seriously, stop taking yourself so god damn serious. This is a game. If you can not handle people taking a game less serious than you, don't play or surround yourself with likeminded people.