"Who, WHAT are you?" *main story spoilers*

[Cilia]

I agree with much of Moose-senpai's theory ('tis an actual theory). However I would posit that Elidibus, being the arbitrator and intended mediator of the Ascians, is not particularly bound to our world. Instead he is the one who is supposed to coordinate every Calamity on each plane - that is to say his job is to come up with strategies for Calamities, while the local plane's Ascian (Lahabrea in our case) is the one who comes up with the tactics. Lahabrea notes after Nabriales' death that "The Ardor was not his to invoke," meaning he's either being possessive on who gets to wreak havoc (seems unlikely) or he's outright noting that Nabriales was doomed to fail.

There's also the matter of the Ascian Prime and the Warriors of Darkness...

The Ascian Prime is a violation of the laws of the world. It's a fused being born from two Ascians (Lahabrea and Igeyorhm in the one case we've seen thus far, but theoretically any two could pull it off) created by "breaking down the barriers of existence." It also tells us to "render up our souls, that Lord Zodiark might be reborn," and upon defeat screams "What walls are these?! Damn you, Hydaelyn!" ... obviously aside from sundering the world Hydaelyn has put up some kind of dimensional or causal barrier that stops things like the Ascian Prime from existing. We have, after all, "grown so strong within [the Blessing of Light] to deny [the Ascians their] power." Hydaelyn herself governs the laws of the world... and the Blessing lets us reinforce those laws, presumably.

As for the Warriors of Darkness, they're still a great big enigma (wrapped in a mystery). However based on them having formerly slain an Ascian only to join them later, I would posit that they are either refugees from a destroyed world out for revenge on Hydaelyn or trying to save their world by destroying ours in its stead. Those seem like the two most likely possibilities based on the little evidence we have.

As for Thordan's comment on asking what we were? With us shown in shadow? Hmm... well, if nobody is going to survive a transition back to the "way everything once was and ever should have remained"... might it be that, again, every living mortal holds a small fragment of Zodiark's essence within them? I know it was apparently a thread from XI, but if nobody is going to survive it makes a significant amount of sense - everyone needs to "render up their souls" for Zodiark to be reborn, as the Ascian Prime says. The Echo, which allows us to violate Hydaelyn's laws much like the Ascians, would then be a symptom of Zodiark's power; unlike everyone else, we possess a shard as opposed to a sliver of Zodiark's power, which allows us to perform some feats similar to those of the Ascians. The Blessing is a way to keep that power in check - notably we are the only one with all six Crystals of Light, necessarily so to keep the Dark within from overwhelming us. Even those with the Echo, such as Minfilia and Ysayle, rarely manifest one or more. Most people simply lack the gift or knowledge to see the "truth" - but Thordan, having become an aetheric being, was able to see past our outer "shell" so to speak and glimpse the Dark within us. (Hilariously enough this is supported to some extent by Sephirot's theme song of all things, which tells us to "Heed the Dark within [our] being." Both Ramuh and Kan-E-Senna also make references to the "Dark" that lurks in the hearts of men...)


Maybe. Possibly. Who knows. /rambling

[Tenkuu]

That makes me think.. what does the blessing has to do with Nabriales not being able to enter the Rising Stones, whether we're close to it or not?

The same thing as us not having a full Blessing had to do with Igeyorhm being able to hurt us, I'd wager. Rather than take the "not able to enter the Rising Stones" statement literally, I think it was meant more in the sense that they didn't dare try to enter on the off chance that we might be home to kick some Ascian ass. If it *was* meant literally though, I would assume that our Blessing affords those on our side a certain radius of protection in the same way that Hydaelyn affords us her protection through her Blessing. In other words, we don't actually need to be there in person for the Rising Stones to be protected anymore than we need to be standing next to the Mother Crystal to benefit from the protection of the Blessing. Or could it simply be that the link between Hydaelyn and us, as well as that between us and the Rising Stones (and its occupants), is established through the aetherial world and affords us and them a sort of permanent protection?

The question is more, why does losing the blessing have some kind of realm-wide effect?
The WoL hasn't been the WoL forever, and as far I understand there are times without one.. but then, why didn't the Ascians take advantage of that? Likely because that seal would still be in place without a WoL..
I can't imagine losing the blessing would cause the seal to be broken.. perhaps it's the other way around.. breaking the seal makes you lose the blessing.

Actually, it seems as if the Ascians have *always* been scheming, especially if we consider that they're known to have been doing it for over 1000 years, right? They manipulated the Allagans, manipulated the dragons, and essentially orchestrated this massive scheme to have Bahamut burst out of Dalamud and cause an Umbral Era.

[Tenkuu]

The Ascian Prime is a violation of the laws of the world. It's a fused being born from two Ascians (Lahabrea and Igeyorhm in the one case we've seen thus far, but theoretically any two could pull it off) created by "breaking down the barriers of existence." It also tells us to "render up our souls, that Lord Zodiark might be reborn," and upon defeat screams "What walls are these?! Damn you, Hydaelyn!" ... obviously aside from sundering the world Hydaelyn has put up some kind of dimensional or causal barrier that stops things like the Ascian Prime from existing. We have, after all, "grown so strong within [the Blessing of Light] to deny [the Ascians their] power." Hydaelyn herself governs the laws of the world... and the Blessing lets us reinforce those laws, presumably.

However, why would the Ascian Prime only experience these "walls" upon its defeat if Hydaelyn was stopping them from existing in the first place?

As for the Warriors of Darkness, they're still a great big enigma (wrapped in a mystery). However based on them having formerly slain an Ascian only to join them later, I would posit that they are either refugees from a destroyed world out for revenge on Hydaelyn or trying to save their world by destroying ours in its stead. Those seem like the two most likely possibilities based on the little evidence we have.

They seem to be exactly what Unukalhai warns us about: primal hunters who have developed an insatiable appetite for aether. However, they didn't seem to be using auracite in that fight, so I have to wonder how exactly that works. Either way, I don't really trust the kid. He's a schemer and even Urianger disavowed his methods for trying to get rid of Regula.

As for Thordan's comment on asking what we were? With us shown in shadow? Hmm... well, if nobody is going to survive a transition back to the "way everything once was and ever should have remained"... might it be that, again, every living mortal holds a small fragment of Zodiark's essence within them? I know it was apparently a thread from XI, but if nobody is going to survive it makes a significant amount of sense - everyone needs to "render up their souls" for Zodiark to be reborn, as the Ascian Prime says. The Echo, which allows us to violate Hydaelyn's laws much like the Ascians, would then be a symptom of Zodiark's power; unlike everyone else, we possess a shard as opposed to a sliver of Zodiark's power, which allows us to perform some feats similar to those of the Ascians. The Blessing is a way to keep that power in check - notably we are the only one with all six Crystals of Light, necessarily so to keep the Dark within from overwhelming us. Even those with the Echo, such as Minfilia and Ysayle, rarely manifest one or more. Most people simply lack the gift or knowledge to see the "truth" - but Thordan, having become an aetheric being, was able to see past our outer "shell" so to speak and glimpse the Dark within us. (Hilariously enough this is supported to some extent by Sephirot's theme song of all things, which tells us to "Heed the Dark within [our] being." Both Ramuh and Kan-E-Senna also make references to the "Dark" that lurks in the hearts of men...)

According to Ramuh, the concepts of light and dark have only existed recently, probably since Hydaelyn's banishment of Zodiark. In accordance with what you said, Thordan might have simply been too full of hubris to understand that darkness is a normal part of every human, just as light is. Otherwise, what he saw could have simply been the beginnings of a manifestation of power (or aether) lust brought on by the use of auracite. It could have been that he wasn't understanding what he was seeing. Either way, what he saw seems to have been more a result of a general mingling of aether rather than anything specifically related to Zodiark. Or at least, that's my belief.

[Hinoto-no-Ryuji]

They manipulated the Allagans, manipulated the dragons, and essentially orchestrated this massive scheme to have Bahamut burst out of Dalamud and cause an Umbral Era.

Did the Ascians orchestrate Project Meteor? I certainly wouldn't be surprised if that were the case, but I was under the impression that was entirely Nael's doing and the Ascians (as we know them) didn't come into the picture until ARR. Was it ever revealed that the Ascians manipulated Nael into using the Lunar Transmitter?

[Morningstar1337]

Did the Ascians orchestrate Project Meteor? I certainly wouldn't be surprised if that were the case, but I was under the impression that was entirely Nael's doing and the Ascians (as we know them) didn't come into the picture until ARR. Was it ever revealed that the Ascians manipulated Nael into using the Lunar Transmitter?

AFAIK, no. But they had a more indirect involvement with that spanning though of years and dozen of eras

It all began with an empire, a voidsent and a crystal tower. The recently revived emporer made a pact with this voidsent, but need aether, a ton of it. Do they built the Crystal Tower for that purpose (and because the emperor has no clothes palace). They were also waging war with the dragons of Meracysdia and managed to kill one who went by Bahamut. His brood-sister, Tiamat became grief strike and the Ascians put on their paragon act and offered her a chance to bring back her beloved, and bring him back she did...as a primal monstrocity. Then the Asicans gave the Allagans the menas to capture deiform entities, which them would then use on the Warring Traid and more relevantly, Bahamut (Prime :P). You see,, the Tower needed for the pact ironiclay needed a way to harness more aether, so they built Dalamud and placed Bahamut in there as a prison and either a lens or a mirrors for the tower. Of course Allag fell bu Dalamud still hovered over the years and became mistaken by a smaller Moon, until Nael arrived on the Scene with project Meteor

tl'dr, the only connection the Ascians have thus far to that Calamity was teaching Tiamat how to summon Primals and Allag how to contain them, they might had benefitted from it all the same and I doubt the timeline woul had remained without their influence on that part of history. But we don;t know if the Ascians went to Nael and pulled an Inception on him with Project Meteor.

[Tenkuu]

Given some revelations that come from the newest part of the Triad story, its POSSIBLE there is something other than the Blessing that caused Thordan see us in shadow and all that...spoils since not part of the main story currently just in case.

Given what the refrence is though, I don't think our use of White Auracite on Nabriales and Igeyorhm is changing us. We never channeled their power and only kept them locked in it for, at most, a minute. But its still possible that Zodiark's power has seeped into our own just from those brief interactions. Mostly theory, and I don't even believe it myself.

Otherwise I agree with others, its mostly Thordan in disbelief, as well as the fact that he was dying.

Given that it was included in a cutscene, I'm more inclined to believe that it wasn't just Thordan's hubris, especially since at the moment of death, one is technically supposed to experience greater clarity. I think the self-delusion and disbelief about his defeat happened to come just before his moment of clarity, which immediately preceded his death.

My working theory since the Antitower has been that the fourteen overlords represent each of the worlds that resulted from the cracking of reality. Seeing as "ten and three" reflections of the Source were created, you'd have a sphere of influence in each. This would explain the importance of Lahabrea's being "of this world", why he's essentially the ringleader of actions taken in this plane, why all of the black-masks of this realm seem to have been risen by him personally, etc. The only reason our plane has two Ascians (the other being Elidibus) is because ours is the original, where Hydaelyn cast Zodiark from. I suppose Elidibus is the arbitrator of Zodiark, sent as an emissary to the source of mortal life.

Considering that you and I have talked about this before, I'm really glad to see that you now have a working theory about the whole "of this world" comment, and it's pretty bloody brilliant. Speaking of Elidibus though, wouldn't all the worlds be relatively similar considering that Elidibus expects the rules of diplomacy towards emissaries to apply to ours as well?

[Enkidoh]

Did the Ascians orchestrate Project Meteor? I certainly wouldn't be surprised if that were the case, but I was under the impression that was entirely Nael's doing and the Ascians (as we know them) didn't come into the picture until ARR. Was it ever revealed that the Ascians manipulated Nael into using the Lunar Transmitter?

Well, we don't know for sure if they literally did, especially how in 1.0 the Ascians were hardly shown (one was getting around in an elezensuit in the original Limsa storyline, and there was one scene with a wraith-like Ascian out in Thanalan during the Path of the Twelve storyline, the model for that particular one was actually used for the 'Ascian Prime' in Heavensward), but other than that, there was no mention about Ascian involvement in Nael's gradual slide into insanity in the last months of 1.0 at all.

For this reason, if they really did have connections to it, any Ascian involvement to it is a retcon, such as the Echo-scene to the Battle of Carteneau early in ARR's story where Lahabrea and another Ascian are watching the devastation from a distance and relishing it, and... as Lahabrea seemed to have conveniently plonked Ultima Weapon right into Gaius's lap... it makes Ascian-involvement with Nael and Project Meteor all the more likely. But again... it would be a retcon, as it was never stated in 1.0. But I digress...

[Tenkuu]

Did the Ascians orchestrate Project Meteor? I certainly wouldn't be surprised if that were the case, but I was under the impression that was entirely Nael's doing and the Ascians (as we know them) didn't come into the picture until ARR. Was it ever revealed that the Ascians manipulated Nael into using the Lunar Transmitter?

Oh, I wasn't talking about Project Meteor specifically. I was referring to the fact that they had the Allagans trap Bahamut very long ago with the possible knowledge that it would all eventually blow up in the entire world's face. Either way, it doesn't seem as though they ever missed an opportunity to manipulate someone.

AFAIK, no. But they had a more indirect involvement with that spanning though of years and dozen of eras

It all began with an empire, a voidsent and a crystal tower. The recently revived emporer made a pact with this voidsent, but need aether, a ton of it. Do they built the Crystal Tower for that purpose (and because the emperor has no clothes palace). They were also waging war with the dragons of Meracysdia and managed to kill one who went by Bahamut. His brood-sister, Tiamat became grief strike and the Ascians put on their paragon act and offered her a chance to bring back her beloved, and bring him back she did...as a primal monstrocity. Then the Asicans gave the Allagans the menas to capture deiform entities, which them would then use on the Warring Traid and more relevantly, Bahamut (Prime :P). You see,, the Tower needed for the pact ironiclay needed a way to harness more aether, so they built Dalamud and placed Bahamut in there as a prison and either a lens or a mirrors for the tower. Of course Allag fell bu Dalamud still hovered over the years and became mistaken by a smaller Moon, until Nael arrived on the Scene with project Meteor

tl'dr, the only connection the Ascians have thus far to that Calamity was teaching Tiamat how to summon Primals and Allag how to contain them, they might had benefitted from it all the same and I doubt the timeline woul had remained without their influence on that part of history. But we don;t know if the Ascians went to Nael and pulled an Inception on him with Project Meteor.

During that Echo cutscene, the one that happens when you faint at the ceremony of your chosen city-state, Lahabrea makes a comment to the effect that he didn't expect to see Bahamut again, so it seems unlikely that the Ascians had a hand in Project Meteor itself. However, it makes me wonder how the Ascians hoped to benefit from helping the Allagans trap Bahamut and other dragons. Was it simply enough that they were causing conflict between the two races, or did they foresee Allag's eventual self-destruction as a result of their actions?

[Cilia]

However, why would the Ascian Prime only experience these "walls" upon its defeat if Hydaelyn was stopping them from existing in the first place?

Because Lahabrea and Igeyorhm were using the Echo to violate Hydaelyn's laws in the first place...

Let us show these mortals the true power of the Echo... the power to break down the barriers of existence.

... then we beat the shit outta the Ascian Prime...

What walls are these?! Damn you, Hydaelyn!

The[ Warriors of Darkness] seem to be exactly what Unukalhai warns us about: primal hunters who have developed an insatiable appetite for aether. However, they didn't seem to be using auracite in that fight, so I have to wonder how exactly that works. Either way, I don't really trust the kid. He's a schemer and even Urianger disavowed his methods for trying to get rid of Regula.

We know nothing of real value about the Warriors of Darkness beyond one of their names (and we don't even know that in-story).

I'm hesitant to speculate about the Auracite because, unlike the people from lil' White's tale, we do not use it to trap and keep aetherial beings as aether batteries. That sounds suspiciously like what the Allagans did and the Garleans are trying to do... a possible source for a Kefkaesque descent into madness for Regula or Varis? Hmm...

According to Ramuh, the concepts of light and dark have only existed recently, probably since Hydaelyn's banishment of Zodiark. In accordance with what you said, Thordan might have simply been too full of hubris to understand that darkness is a normal part of every human, just as light is. Otherwise, what he saw could have simply been the beginnings of a manifestation of power (or aether) lust brought on by the use of auracite. It could have been that he wasn't understanding what he was seeing. Either way, what he saw seems to have been more a result of a general mingling of aether rather than anything specifically related to Zodiark. Or at least, that's my belief.

Before you are saying I am using this disparagingly, I would explain you that it is essentially what I did that entire paragraph.

[Anonymoose]

Speaking of Elidibus though, wouldn't all the worlds be relatively similar considering that Elidibus expects the rules of diplomacy towards emissaries to apply to ours as well?

It's possibly true that these rules are consistent across worlds (at the very least towards the Emissary of Zodiark) regardless of the scene, but in that moment Elidibus was just making a point of how long it's been since he was in our world; "Has it been so long that striking an Emissary has gone from unimaginable to your first instinct?", essentially. He makes a similar comment to Minfilia when she fails to recognize the significance of the white robes; he's surprised, but admits that in the thousands of years he's been absent, it's to be expected that he might vanish from the folklore.

At least once, the Ascians point out that it's been "a long time" since a there was a true "Warrior of Light". I was curious if perhaps Elidibus doesn't bother making an appearance, otherwise, but I couldn't find anything beyond the few scant mentions. /shrug