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  1. #51
    Player
    Teraluna's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    662
    Character
    Tera Luna
    World
    Louisoix
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 100
    Show me where I said the class is awful, my second post in this topic shows I didn't, and please have a discussion without resorting to personal insults.
    My post is about the introduction of a lucky dip mechanic to 6 of the class abilities - not about any of the other skills - just about the pot luck draw system.

    Now I agree they have rng mitigation abilities - put there to compensate for the rng they put in there in the first place.
    So for these 6 abilities (not any others):
    Step 1 - add rng -> Step 2 - take rng away. Does that really sound like the best mechanic for these 6 skills?
    That to me just comes across as over-fussy, not the best in the very hectic environment of high end group content.
    (1)

  2. #52
    Player
    AskaRay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    3,543
    Character
    Aeon Rakshasa
    World
    Lich
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Teraluna View Post
    That to me just comes across as over-fussy, not the best in the very hectic environment of high end group content.
    Maybe some people find it... I don't know...fun?
    Fun? In my video game? No way.
    (4)
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    Glamour is TRUE ENDGAME

  3. #53
    Player
    Rai_Takara's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    235
    Character
    Rai Nagisei
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Dancer Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Rawrz View Post
    All of those are still DPS increases. xD Balance and Arrow just typically scale higher.
    Of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo View Post
    I just don't think they're very impactful because they're not reliable, is all. They're nice, but not a single group would be able to structure around them at any given time (ie, a raid group dropping BRD/MCH because they have an AST). This is more what I mean when I say that the cards are disappointing on a strategic level. It's not a case of "gitting gud" or anything like that - it's that there's not really a safeguard against Spire > Royal Road > Spire > Redraw > Ewer when what would have really helped your group was an AOE Bole. "Good" Astrologians will adapt with what they get, but to call that skill is a bit disingenuous, IMO. A "good" AST can't really provide resource regeneration or DPS buffs precisely at the time your group needs it short of heavily sacrificing their other buff uptime by holding a specific Royal Road and a certain card in Spread for ages. A "good" AST will just look at an endless Spear chain as an opportunity to use their own cooldowns more aggressively, or encourage others to do the same, whereas a "bad" AST will just click off the card and grumble. Neither AST has true prevention of getting those frustrating chains to begin with, though (Spear > RR > Bole > Redraw > Spear, etc, just to highlight that I'm aware of the tools that AST DOES have - they're still not a guarantor of getting anything "good" from your draws).

    I hope this makes sense. :x I'm just trying to highlight that not everyone who dislikes the RNG is some awful player who has no clue how to use the tools they're given - some of us just find that the RNG actually LIMITS strategic card usage.
    It's fine to dislike RNG. I don't think there is an AST anywhere that likes to not draw a card they wanted. As you have mentioned, drawing a card isn't skill. Not drawing what you need doesn't make you a bad player, but getting use out of that card you drew is what makes you a good player.

    With how long fights can be and the number of draws that you can make, you WILL be able to get good cards/combos. In addition, you can offer utility in between your card combos. Constantly getting spears means that's a NIN with 16 second mudras, or perhaps an extended spear to catch other longer oGCDs. Constantly getting spires/ewers means your BRD/MCH will not have to provide TP/MP which leads to higher overall raid DPS.

    On the other hand, sometimes people mess up mechanics, die, or manage their resources improperly. Having a spire/ewer there could possibly save the run or at the very least, smoothen it. You may only have a 1/6 chance of getting what you need but you have a chance that no other healer has.

    The more you draw, the less RNG has an effect.
    (0)

  4. #54
    Player
    loreleidiangelo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    1,731
    Character
    Lorelei Diangelo
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    Dancer Lv 74
    You say " you WILL be able to get good cards/combos", but...its RNG. There is no factual way to eliminate the probability (no matter how small it might be) that you spend an entire fight without drawing a single Arrow or Balance. That is what I think needs addressing. A few suggestions might be these:

    -Spread CD counts down the second you add the card, not use it. This means you could drop one from your Spread to instantly add another that you feel might be more beneficial for the future.

    -no CD on Shuffle. You risk losing buff uptime if you want to keep fussing for the ideal cards, but for those who are good at multitasking/weaving oGCDs, it's an option.

    -a CD that lets the AST draw a card of their choosing. Recast timer on this up for debate, but maybe 120/180 seconds?

    I just prefer using strategy to plan for fights, and right now as an AST I don't even factor my cards when approaching progression (instead Synastry, Lightspeed, CU and CO are what come to mind). Ignoring a big chunk of my toolkit because I can't strategize around it makes me sad. Imagine if SCHs couldn't plan around their fairy buffs, nor BRD/MCH their resource regens. This is the biggest reason I want to see more AST buff changes. Being able to plan buffs for SOME parts of a fight I don't feel would be too broken.
    (1)

  5. #55
    Player
    Rawrz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    1,704
    Character
    Sir Rawrz
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo View Post
    I just prefer using strategy to plan for fights, and right now as an AST I don't even factor my cards when approaching progression (instead Synastry, Lightspeed, CU and CO are what come to mind). Ignoring a big chunk of my toolkit because I can't strategize around it makes me sad. Imagine if SCHs couldn't plan around their fairy buffs, nor BRD/MCH their resource regens. This is the biggest reason I want to see more AST buff changes. Being able to plan buffs for SOME parts of a fight I don't feel would be too broken.
    It's more like you have to plan for multiple outcomes, to look into multiple futures. Balance, plan A to the dragoon. Arrow, plan B to the Black mage. Spear, Plan C to the Bard. Something else that you find useless? Move on or use it to the extent that it can be used (Give the ewer to your coheal or yourself or give TP to your pally or monk. Instant gratification, no, but it does help the run. Fey Caress isnt as noticeable of a dps increase as you'd think, if that's what you're referring to about the other healers increasing dps.)
    (0)
    Last edited by Rawrz; 06-20-2016 at 02:49 AM.

  6. #56
    Player
    loreleidiangelo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    1,731
    Character
    Lorelei Diangelo
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    Dancer Lv 74
    Quote Originally Posted by Rawrz View Post
    It's more like you have to plan for multiple outcomes, to look into multiple futures. Balance, plan A to the dragoon. Arrow, plan B to the Black mage. Spear, Plan C to the Bard. Something else that you find useless? Move on or use it to the extent that it can be used (Give the ewer to your coheal or yourself or give TP to your pally or monk. Instant gratification, no, but it does help the run. Fey Caress isnt as noticeable of a dps increase as you'd think, if that's what you're referring to about the other healers increasing dps.)
    That's more "flexibility" than stratagem, IMO. I'm not trying to quibble, but to me, dealing with what you're given isn't so much strategy as just pure reaction. If I can't plan an AOE Bole for a raid buster, why do I even care what I draw? Just use whatever, whenever - nobody's counting on it anyway. It's not like cards just being flavor ruins AST's healing viability, but it does dampen some of my fun.

    I should clarify that my issue isn't that I don't know what to "do" with cards that aren't Arrow or Balance...it's that I essentially ignore any sort of pre-planning with cards at all, which I don't think should be the case considering that they're supposed to be AST's unique healer "mechanic".
    (1)
    Last edited by loreleidiangelo; 06-20-2016 at 03:13 AM.

  7. #57
    Player
    Rai_Takara's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    235
    Character
    Rai Nagisei
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Dancer Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo View Post
    You say " you WILL be able to get good cards/combos", but...its RNG. There is no factual way to eliminate the probability (no matter how small it might be) that you spend an entire fight without drawing a single Arrow or Balance. That is what I think needs addressing. A few suggestions might be these:

    -Spread CD counts down the second you add the card, not use it. This means you could drop one from your Spread to instantly add another that you feel might be more beneficial for the future.

    -no CD on Shuffle. You risk losing buff uptime if you want to keep fussing for the ideal cards, but for those who are good at multitasking/weaving oGCDs, it's an option.

    -a CD that lets the AST draw a card of their choosing. Recast timer on this up for debate, but maybe 120/180 seconds?

    I just prefer using strategy to plan for fights, and right now as an AST I don't even factor my cards when approaching progression (instead Synastry, Lightspeed, CU and CO are what come to mind). Ignoring a big chunk of my toolkit because I can't strategize around it makes me sad. Imagine if SCHs couldn't plan around their fairy buffs, nor BRD/MCH their resource regens. This is the biggest reason I want to see more AST buff changes. Being able to plan buffs for SOME parts of a fight I don't feel would be too broken.
    If it's a fight longer than 5+ mins, the chances you won't draw a single balance/arrow is almost 0%. You could say the chance exists, but I have yet to do such a fight and not draw a balance/arrow or at the very least not have one ready at pull. You also have to understand that cards are a bonus on top of your solid healing tools. Your first job is to keep the group alive. The second job is to contribute to raid dps, either through your own, your cards, or both.

    As Rawrz said, even if you don't draw that balance/arrow, someone is going to make use of that spear/bole/spire/ewer. Personally, the RNG is what makes the class the most fun for me. It requires me to be knowledgeable about how my cards interact with every job in the game. I understand that RNG is annoying but that's how the class was built.
    (1)
    Last edited by Rai_Takara; 06-20-2016 at 03:19 AM.

  8. #58
    Player
    Alistaire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    2,980
    Character
    Your Character
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Blue Mage Lv 60
    People overstate the RNG aspect of AST so bad. Nobody relies on any particular card at a particular time to avoid wiping. Most of the cards are variations of damage buffs anyway. Only bole (directly) and spear (indirect offensive and defensive boost) have defensive use and aren't potent enough to make or break a strat.
    (2)

  9. #59
    Player
    loreleidiangelo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    1,731
    Character
    Lorelei Diangelo
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    Dancer Lv 74
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistaire View Post
    People overstate the RNG aspect of AST so bad. Nobody relies on any particular card at a particular time to avoid wiping. Most of the cards are variations of damage buffs anyway. Only bole (directly) and spear (indirect offensive and defensive boost) have defensive use and aren't potent enough to make or break a strat.
    This is precisely what I'm trying to highlight, I guess. Right now, due to their design, AST cards are just "for funsies", and I think they should be more than that. Hoping for some retooling in 4.0.
    (2)

  10. #60
    Player
    DarkmoonVael's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    1,014
    Character
    Darkmoon Vael
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Teraluna View Post
    That to me just comes across as over-fussy, not the best in the very hectic environment of high end group content.
    You phrase it this way. Other will say highly rewarding and a level of skill in a main healer that WHM is lacking.
    (1)

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