Alienation of Dedicated and Skilled players

[Underdog2204]

Calm yourself. Your assumption of me assuming that is any better how? Which is far from the truth, but again...Perception. Clarification goes a long way. Tone down the hypocrisy a little bit. I have no qualms with people disagreeing and backing their statement with reasoning. But to say, "No it won't work because I don't like it" is a poor refute in any stance. You claim to be open minded but are quick to deny suggestions.

Now you can keep attacking me if you want or you can actually speak on a civil plain if you desire. I'll gladly combat you either way until someone wants to chime in.

I'm always calm, just blunt. Yeah it can be grating but I have given my reasoning - optimisation.

It's a real issue that affect MMO communites and I've never seen it do good, "it's easy to say well casuals don't need to bother with it" which is true but then it doesn't work like that. People want their characters to be the best they can be so if their is a optimal build people flock to it just like FoTM classes. It doesn't take much for it to become the norm and then those damn dirty hipsters (jk) that don't follow suit quickly become targets. I like our community and do not like the idea of seeing it devolve into a cesspool over a few stats.

That is far more than "because I don't like it".

I'm perfectly happy to have you address if you feel inclined to do so and I agree that perception has probably clogged my thinking to which I do apologise.

[mirta000]

People still like choice, even if it does not matter in the larger scheme. What if Ninja's had boots of the same ilvl and had to choose between moving 25% faster or using boots like a trinket to ignore knock backs for 10s. Neither of those choices are gaming breaking, but both could be extremely useful in different situations.

choice sums up to "you use what is objectively better, or you will be told to get out".

[zosia]

choice sums up to "you use what is objectively better, or you will be told to get out".

Again, if you're joining a pug, that seems like a logical line of thought to me. If a player wishes to play their own way, they should just play with like minded people. I don't understand the problem.

I'm always calm, just blunt. Yeah it can be grating but I have given my reasoning - optimisation.

It's a real issue that affect MMO communites and I've never seen it do good, "it's easy to say well casuals don't need to bother with it" which is true but then it doesn't work like that. People want their characters to be the best they can be so if their is a optimal build people flock to it just like FoTM classes. It doesn't take much for it to become the norm and then those damn dirty hipsters (jk) that don't follow suit quickly become targets. I like our community and do not like the idea of seeing it devolve into a cesspool over a few stats.

That is far more than "because I don't like it".

I'm perfectly happy to have you address if you feel inclined to do so and I agree that perception has probably clogged my thinking.

In a game where "ice mage" is something you can run across in your roulette, I doubt even a fraction of your concerns would play out on live serves. People in this game don't generally care about optimization. Just go stroll around idylshire and check peoples gear. Even with the proliferation of grade V materia, people don't meld V's and even worse some don't meld at all.

I think you are are just being a worry wart over nothing. This game is super casual, it will always be super casual, and even with horizontal progression, it will remain super casual.

[mirta000]

Again, if you're joining a pug, that seems like a logical line of thought to me. If a player wishes to play their own way, they should just play with like minded people. I don't understand the problem.

but what is the point in adding that toxicity? I was in GW2 which ultimately summed up with "zerk or out".

[Lorielle]

I'm always calm, just blunt. Yeah it can be grating but I have given my reasoning - optimisation.

It's a real issue that affect MMO communites and I've never seen it do good, "it's easy to say well casuals don't need to bother with it" which is true but then it doesn't work like that. People want their characters to be the best they can be so if their is a optimal build people flock to it just like FoTM classes. It doesn't take much for it to become the norm and then those damn dirty hipsters (jk) that don't follow suit quickly become targets. I like our community and do not like the idea of seeing it devolve into a cesspool over a few stats.

That is far more than "because I don't like it".

I'm perfectly happy to have you address if you feel inclined to do so and I agree that perception has probably clogged my thinking.

To be honest, we have that sort of mindset already. Because in most cases, people will seek out Crit/Det for most classes. BLM is SS/Crit. WHM/AST(Det/Piety) and SCH(Crit/Acc). Healers probably have the most room for optimization though just so they can meet accuracy caps. But here's the thing, we can't move away from these stats because they are not optimal. If I see a tank for example with nothing but parry and accuracy, even I would be taken a back. I won't say anything, but I'd be skeptical. It's only when player execution becomes a problem that things are addressed. People don't really care too much about your gear until something isn't being killed or you're messing up a mechanic.

I don't think the community would fall apart at a little more depth towards item customization when the end all is still "Do mechanics right".

[Underdog2204]

In a game where "ice mage" is something you can run across in your roulette, I doubt even a fraction of your concerns would play out on live serves. People in this game don't generally care about optimization. Just go stroll around idylshire and check peoples gear. Even with the proliferation of grade V materia, people don't meld V's and even worse some don't meld at all.

I think you are are just being a worry wart over nothing. This game is super casual, it will always be super casual, and even with horizontal progression, it will remain super casual.

Oh it's there just hidden. Routlette isn't challenging enough really for people to be overly concerned about it but as soon as things start getting a bit more difficult that facade falls apart.

I was in Burden of the Son Normal and some poor DRG was getting ripped to shreds by 3 other people because his dps wasn't great. To be fair his dps wasn't great but that doesn't justify that kind of treatment. It only takes one wipe for people to quit content in groups, speed run expectations etc.

Combine this with calls for more challenging content like Weeping City, then add ontop of that the optimisation I'm worried about and it's not great.

[zosia]

but what is the point in adding that toxicity? I was in GW2 which ultimately summed up with "zerk or out".

adding that toxicity? For starters, it's not toxic, that's just how life works. If you want to operate and participate in a public space (such as joining a random PF pug), you will perform in line with what is ever generally agreed upon. If that does not suit your needs, you make your own group or find one that agrees with your performance standards.

That's how things are now, as we speak, on live servers. Try joining a niddhog EX party choosing to only cast ice spells as a blm or wearing str accessories as a tank. YMMV just depending on the people you play with and the groups you join. If you join a serious progression PF group and you are just casting ice spells or insist on using outdated builds, you should be kicked.

These are realities people already face in-game and it would not change or be exacerbated by any 'toxicity' problems. People who don't tolerate sub par un-optimized game play will continue to do so and people who do tolerate will continue to tolerate those behaviors.

I think this unfounded absurd fear of scrutiny hurts this game at so many turns. That's why we can't have nice things. That's why we can't have in game parser, That's why our gear selection is between vanilla paste and vanilla paste + cool whip. That's why weeping city has been so controversial.

[mirta000]

my question is, what's the point in confusing the newbies even more or introducing non cookie cutter builds? What point does it serve rather than adding extra reason for players to yell at each other?

[Tyla_Esmeraude]

Haha, this is the reason I stopped playing and just avoided the forums altogether. It's the same bs everytime. People post asking to make the game have more subtance and people just give them the same responses I've heard for the past 3 years. I grew tired of it. I stopped raiding first, then I decided to play casually and then I realized (or rather, finally accepted the fact) it was just the same format everytime and that the esoterics I was getting, as well as the alexander gear was going to be eventually replaced by a new ilevel gear in the upcoming patch, so I stopped playing altogether. The only reason I even got on after months was because a friend wanted to try out Ozma for the first time and even though I hesitated, I went just because he asked me to, otherwise I wouldn't have.

Now, the only reason I got on the forums was to Upvote the OP and any similar posts that I personally think have common sense in them.

Guess what, all this coming from a person who's into the vanity content of this game. Yes, I was a raider and the way people think on these forums, they probably think I was super hardcore, elitist and didn't really care about anything else in the game. They probably think I am that hateful 5% that wants to ruin casual content. Well you are in for a surprise because I was NONE of them. I was a raider because I like challenges, it is fun for me, but glamour was too! And guess what? After I quit raiding, the only content that was interesting for me to do was Sephirot and after that, it was crafting, but crafting had its own problems and with each new coming patch I was just not having fun with it. I was a raider, a crafter and a glamour fan. I found all of those VERY different (both hardcore and casual) content types interesting for me. In the end though, the casual glamour end game was not enough to keep me playing.

What I am trying to say is, even though I loved glamour (a casual type of content!) and was always checking the glamour sites to come up with ideas for my character, it was not substantial enough for me to keep playing, after I had quit raiding and crafting altogether. Why? Because glamour content is superficial fluff! It is fun yes, but it's just icing on the cake, just like minions, something I liked to collect, too! If I wanted to play a vanity focused game this is totally not the game I would go for. I played this game because I wanted to play a Final Fantasy game, not a dress up, look cute, walk my minion, fluff game... I wanted to play a game with depth, because that's what Final Fantasies have been to me.

I've been having more fun playing offline RPGs, they have more depth and substance and I feel like my hours are better invested knowing my gear is not going to get replaced every so and so months. I don't feel like a hamster on the wheel trying to catch the next big thing, I feel very relaxed when playing them and the content is actually fun.

The whole point of my post is to ask ourselves... is glamour and all the superficial content enough to keep the game afloat. Enough to keep players interested. For some people, definetely. But for another part of the playerbase, definetely not. Not all casual people play to dress up their characters... they play for the battle content. If they weren't, wouldn't they be playing a game focused on vanity entirely?

People ask for substance and some horizontal progression and I 100% agree with them. It probably would be too much to ask the forum posters (judging by the past 3 years of being a forum reader and poster...) to stop being so damn selfish and instead of spouting nonsense of it being a whining post as soon as you see "more substance" or "FFXI/horizontal progression" or something of the sorts, to carefully read and think about what the OP and people supporting him, are actually trying to say. I probably ask for a miracle of the FFXIV playerbase uniting instead of acting like children ("Well if you don't like my candy, go away, don't try to change MY candy, I like it the way it is and if you do the team will just waste resources on flavours I am not interested in even though I already have a lot to choose from, I want it all to myself" -while watching people stop being interested in such candy- instead of... "Well, I don't think I'd like that flavour, but it could become an option for other people to enjoy the candy" ) which is why I avoid the forums ever since I stopped playing... but if that day ever comes, it'll be the day I'll have faith in the playerbase and the game again.

For productive feedback on the horizontal progression subject, people, please check out HeavenlyArmed's post.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3745345

Forums are for debate people, you don't have to agree with everything but by telling someone to go play another game or other nonsensical responses like that, is not debating, is just trying to shut someone up so that you forget people with different opinions from yours exist in this game.

[Underdog2204]

adding that toxicity? For starters, it's not toxic, that's just how life works. If you want to operate and participate in a public space (such as joining a random PF pug), you will perform in line with what is ever generally agreed upon. If that does not suit your needs, you make your own group or find one that agrees with your performance standards.

That's how things are now, as we speak, on live servers. Try joining a niddhog EX party choosing to only cast ice spells as a blm or wearing str accessories as a tank. YMMV just depending on the people you play with and the groups you join. If you join a serious progression PF group and you are just casting ice spells or insist on using outdated builds, you should be kicked.

These are realities people already face in-game and it would not change or be exacerbated by any 'toxicity' problems. People who don't tolerate sub par un-optimized game play will continue to do so and people who do tolerate will continue to tolerate those behaviors.

I think this unfounded absurd fear of scrutiny hurts this game at so many turns. That's why we can't have nice things. That's why we can't have in game parser, That's why our gear selection is between vanilla paste and vanilla paste + cool whip. That's why weeping city has been so controversial.

Scruity is fine it's how it's usually done that's the problem... The bolded part alone shows our concerns are justified.

I thought this whole thing was supposed to bring more choice to players? This isn't about players playing poorly or not knowing their class well it's about itemisation that's supposed to bring choice to players.

ie: Community generally agrees staff x is better than staff y, staff x becomes the accepted version for content.

^ optimisation taking away the choice that the new stats are supposed to offer.