Alienation of Dedicated and Skilled players

[Yukiko]

5. Horizontal progression systems have a lot of potential drawbacks. I personally am really not a fan of them. I find them frustratingly complex and they tend to be a nightmare to balance to high performance difficulties without forcing people into mandatory build anyway.

You should try the divinity games.
Furthermore, there are not many who use only vertical or only horizontal systems, most using mixed system and thats proven to be very satisfying when well balanced.

[MistyMew]

I don't really think the op suggestions/comments are a bad thing. I admit, I am casual. I will always choose to be and prefer to be.

That said, ffxiv does feel a bit.... lacking when it comes to content choices/routes to take in order to achieve a specific goal and what we obtain by doing so. That includes not just the combat aspects but areas like the housing we have, limited glamour design, specializations that have 0 perks tied to them etc...

To me I feel ffxiv is so cool and right on the edge of being its best but they just aren't taking that final step to make the areas I mentioned BAM...FANTASTIC!!

Its like teetering on the edge of a waterfall....but never taking that plunge . Now granted I realize that the plunge can result in a possible 2 things, 1) a huge adrenalin rush and climax OR 2) death. LOL

Is the risk worth it? I say yes.
That's how I see our suggestions ,never a guarantee they will work out but until you try...you just never know. I often wish I could be in that developer meeting room and give that tiny "push" needed to get them all over the edge lol

It is like the are thinking "its good enough" and don't get me wrong, if that's their view then so be it, it is their game and they can and will do whatever they please...I fully understand that.
They have X amount of resources to work with and a specific pay out to make regardless of what I or any other player wants.
But since we really don't know the inner workings of the game or its financial status...we should be suggesting what we think may improve the game. (and that varies wildly between every player!)

So until they say it in a comment outright, players suggesting anything should never be backlashed by others, they are just suggestions....agree or disagree but it is never "bad" to suggest.

Nor is it "whining". I could say the same to those who see nothing wrong with the game...I could say they are mindless automatons lacking even the basic ability to have independent or creative thought by blindly accepting anything thrown at them.. BUT that too would be wrong!!!
We need to stop labelling/assuming/generalizing.

Imo the game is really good!!...just not great as it could be...it is so close I can taste it lol, it can be frustrating because imo, it just needs a final push.

And I think that's what the op means by depth. He is not asking to take way what I enjoy or even changing the level of my gameplay...he wants tidbits added to suit those that crave depth and more immersion/choice/longterm goals/ and perhaps control over their characters advancement with possibly some realistic perks that can could result in that.

Those that enjoy the game for glamor only...excellent!
Those that play to mount collect or pet collect only...excellent!
Those that enjoy the game for crafting or gathering only...excellent!
Those that enjoy the current gear treadmill/raids/dungeons only...excellent!
Those that enjoy erp only....excellent!
Those that play the game to get as rich as possible only ...excellent!
Those that enjoy housing only...excellent!
Those that play mainly to enjoy the company of their friends only....excellent!!
Those that play with a huge interest in it all....excellent!

and the list goes on and on we are all in there somewhere , a variety of bits and pieces from every possible combination.

The only missing combo are those that fall into the op category.

Don't judge what others enjoy nor why they play this game. My interests, the things I am passionate to change, are my own as are yours. D
I may be 100% correct or 100% wrong, until we see some changes its any ones guess.

Even if only 5% of people want more in depth gear stats, or ways to obtain items, set bonuses etc, whatever it is, I think having something for these people can only benefit the game. I try to always support different playstyles as long as one isn't drastically changed because of another.

I think ffxiv has done a wonderful job so far , I would not be subscribed if I thought otherwise, but to me it feels like it still needs to be a bit more polished, in every aspect of game play.

Some horizontal progression would not be a bad addition, not a complete flip to that, but some content should be there for those willing to go the long haul (even if I would not likely want to be a part of it). More depth/choice to stats, maybe merit points, a form of wows reforging etc, huge additions to housing design/player creativity, more depth to all aspects NOT just combat. I realize most posts are regarding gear only but I see a need of more depth in crafting specializations, gathering, housing is starving for this too, glamour, as well as combat content.

It all brinks on being the coolest but all are caught on the very edge of that...

Again JUST my opinion. I never debate, I have my opinion, I leave it, cause that's really all I have to offer on any topic. Agree/disagree, its all good

[mirta000]

In response to those saying that what I want caters to 5% of the playerbase, it doesn't. I'm simply asking for a change to itemization stats and gameplay (to a degree). This would mean people could get different gear to suit their own playstyles. This wouldn't change the fact that someone could run most if not all content.

We can have our glamours, we can have our housing, but those things don't carry a game on their own, we just need something fresh to breathe new life into the game. I have faith that if the team actually put their all into this they could design the new itemization in a way that wouldn't exclude players. Horizontal progression means it would be useful to dabble in all content, casual or hardcore making the gear you get from anything more worthwhile and longer lasting.

what point would that serve? Confuse the population in how they should be gearing even more?

[Reinha]

The joy of a good horizontal system is that you wouldn't have just the one weapon to pick from, but perhaps dozens of different weapons that all played slightly different. One sword's auto attack might be a small AoE, another sword's attack might occasionally apply a dot to the enemy, another sword might funnel emnity from your party to yourself with each blow, another could have a small chance to summon a friendly Beastman to help you fight for 10 seconds every time you parry, etc. It wouldn't be one weapon that lasted, but a whole collection all with different strengths,

For example, if Bismarck dropped this cool cleaving weapon, Ravana dropped a dot weapon, Thordan dropped a threat weapon, Sephirot dropped a spawn weapon and Nidhogg dropped a weapon that radiates healing to everyone. If I like the idea of being a passively cleaving melee and obtain that weapon when it comes out in the first patch, what am I supposed to do in the next patches when there are no upgrades I like for a weapon? If you make one weapon better than the others and give a reason to run the next fights, it becomes vertical progression.

The nature of horizontal progression is that less people run multiple pieces of content, because they are only aiming for one or two pieces of gear out of many options, instead of obtaining each option to continuously increase their power (vertical progression). We can't swap gear in combat and we have restricted inventory space so people would feel discouraged to run all the content for rewards and get all the different pieces if they are the same strength. This means less groups running each piece of content, unless you make it take a very long time to obtain your desired piece (the same people would run that instance/content more which would populate said instance/content).

[Adventica6]

The OP is correct, the games combat is a foregone conclusion, same rotation, day in and day out, with extremely boring gearing system (few more main stat / crit on new items, no effects).

How could you not get bored? it's almost brain numbing, capped for the week? then logoff because nothing else matters even remotely.

When actual issues are brought up like this people like to say, oh it's not so bad, well I'm here to tell you that it is and that people won't stick around if they don't like something, look at all the raiders that left during gordias/midas.

Start designing exciting gearing, not just 5 more int per piece, look at ffxi if you need ideas christ.

anyways, I agree, but nothings gonna change until people start voting with their wallets.

[RobbieH]

I'm going to comment on casual vs hardcore content because it seems to me it's something people are not paying enough attention, i say this because horizontal progression with gear sets would be more midcore+ focused, yet casuals defend how the game is and that's being very selfish when they have so much to do, they don't want horizontal progression why? It's been in the game with GC armor and they didn't complain.

Let's take a look at what casuals and hardcore players have to do:

Casuals have a ton of dungeons, relics, trials, daily stuff, housing, hunts, glamours, role playing, crafting (this can be seen as hardcore for the most serious crafters), maps with Aquapolis, 24 Man Raid, Main Story, Hildibrand, Gold Saucer mini games, soon Palace of the Dead and more.

Midcore/Semi/Hardcore have EX Trial (midcore oriented content at best) and One End-game raid with weekly limits RNG based for 6 months.

^No wonder it's 5% of the player base, i feel sad that since 2.0 (haven't played 1.0 that much) most of the people i knew left the game and only saw them once or twice since then, the 5% used to be more, way more, it's been reduced because the content for them doesn't please them that much.

[NovaLevossida]

I'd say I agree with Limit Break Radio's stance on this: there's no gear lust like there was in FFXI, and any gear you work for is outdated in 3-6 months anyway. There's no motivation like there was getting a Byakko's Haidate, and there's no sense of even wanting an item that much since it will just be replaced in a few months. I raided at 2.0 launch and I came to the conclusion that the effort / frustration wasn't worth the reward / fun factor. Every gear improvement is just marginal stat bumps, and the only consideration I have in picking it is in how to maximize spell speed / crit while maintaining minimum accuracy on my BLM.

It wouldn't kill them to introduce a special slot on armor for job specific gems that allowed you to slot certain materia that provided job bonuses that enhanced abilities or slightly modified them with rarer versions of gems providing more of a boost. These gems wouldn't be lost upon removal like materia as to encourage long lasting gear lust. Things like extending SMN DoTs for a few seconds, a low chance that a Fire 1 could become a Fire IV while also refreshing Astral Fire, stacking the AST deck to slightly favor one card over the others on random draws, reducing the cooldowns of abilities, or extending the range of others, etc. There's a lot that could be done to make gearing more interesting other than the general rule of higher item level = better.

[Cakekizyy]

Let's take a look at what casuals and hardcore players have to do:

Casuals have a ton of dungeons, relics, trials, daily stuff, housing, hunts, glamours, role playing, crafting (this can be seen as hardcore for the most serious crafters), maps with Aquapolis, 24 Man Raid, Main Story, Hildibrand, Gold Saucer mini games, soon Palace of the Dead and more.

Midcore/Semi/Hardcore have EX Trial (midcore oriented content at best) and One End-game raid with weekly limits RNG based for 6 months.

^No wonder it's 5% of the player base, i feel sad that since 2.0 (haven't played 1.0 that much) most of the people i knew left the game and only saw them once or twice since then, the 5% used to be more, way more, it's been reduced because the content for them doesn't please them that much.

All players have the amount of stuff to do, if they choose not to do it that's on them.

[RobbieH]

All players have the amount of stuff to do, if they choose not to do it that's on them.

I'm talking about what there's in the game for each audience.

[CuteWhisper]

All players have the amount of stuff to do, if they choose not to do it that's on them.

How is that on them? I don't even want to touch savage because it looks so damn boring. What's the point going in Savage right now? How dare they want to suggest things that could improve the game. Not everyone care to have a house in game or craft in game. I am bored of it and that's why I won't even resub at that point. People are leaving. Most of my driends from 2.0 don't even want to try getting in Alexander because it is very not rewarding. If they don't do anything about this they might lose more players.