Alienation of Dedicated and Skilled players

[Ilenya]

Poorly balanced due to Vitality having very minimal benefits at the time. That's why it was fixed. You can still min-max for a little extra damage by using certain Strength accessories, but Strength doesn't have benefits that massively outweigh those of Vitality anymore. Back then because the balance was so poor, and due to the content necessitating it due to absurdly high dps checks, there was no competition for a serious raider. You went Strength as much as possible or you didn't raid. However, the fact that VIT tanks existed in other content at the time despite this only serves to strengthen my argument. You had some players who would be jerks about it, but outside of the highest level of content this was the furthest thing from the norm. And even in that highest level of content it only became the norm because the content of the time necessitated it.

I would like to point out, then that the fact that we already know some people will abuse the meta in that way means that any horizontal changes would have to be carefully thought out. Well balanced is fine, but if any option gives even a slight boost over the other, we know that it could be an issue.

Granted, the simplest option would be to just report the idiots doing it, but still.

Also, the main issue I think that happened with Strength tanking in general wasn't the end-game issues (With people who were prepared for it and knew what they were doing), but the fact it became such common knowledge that people who didn't know what they were doing were trying it and failing miserably (I healed some of them, I remember it.)

If the horizontal building was entirely end-game, then this wouldn't be a major issue, because at that point players would (hopefully) understand their roles well enough to work with the system properly instead of playing follow-the-leader with everything.

One more quick question, if you can answer it. Say if 4.0 has a boost to level 70 (mostly to reset ilevels to a base marker) but everything at level 70 was horizontal instead of vertical. Wouldn't that require most fights after the initial gearing up point (Like Law tomes or the old Philosophy tomes) to be the same relative difficulty patch by patch, because they gear isn't actually getting any stronger overall? Would that be an acceptable compromise?

[HeavenlyArmed]

Say if 4.0 has a boost to level 70 (mostly to reset ilevels to a base marker) but everything at level 70 was horizontal instead of vertical. Wouldn't that require most fights after the initial gearing up point (Like Law tomes or the old Philosophy tomes) to be the same relative difficulty patch by patch, because they gear isn't actually getting any stronger overall? Would that be an acceptable compromise?

Well, as someone who isn't as tired of the vertical progression model as OP, I'd prefer to continue on that path rather than go entirely horizontal. In terms of the arguments people make about rewards needing more longevity, I have solutions to that which I would prefer over removing vertical progression entirely in favor of pure horizontal progression, such as moving pre-upgrade tomestone gear down significantly in power so that raid gear from the previous tier remains relevant well into the next tier. But even that has drawbacks that I'm very aware of, and as such I personally prefer the idea of staying with our current system but making the stats within that system more interesting or adding things that can work within that system to make gear more interesting. Though this brings up another thing, horizontal progression and interesting stats aren't inherently the same thing. And there are also a number of different ways you can make horizontal progression work, from everything is entirely horizontal to more gear options in general to having a few ways to progress your character outside of raid that do make you more powerful but without increasing your item level. The last one is my preferred of those options, but there's definitely a debate that could be held on this whole topic, right back to adding gear longevity without any horizontal progression and actually making gear progression even more vertical.

SNIP

Right, but just being better than others isn't what most of us want. We want the game to be the best it can be, and will give feedback to help it in that direction. I don't think XIV is dying by any means, but I see that it has flaws and I see solutions for these flaws that would only serve to make the game better.

[Ilenya]

Well, as someone who isn't as tired of the vertical progression model as OP, I'd prefer to continue on that path rather than go entirely horizontal. In terms of the arguments people make about rewards needing more longevity, I have solutions to that which I would prefer over removing vertical progression entirely in favor of pure horizontal progression, such as moving pre-upgrade tomestone gear down significantly in power so that raid gear from the previous tier remains relevant well into the next tier. But even that has drawbacks that I'm very aware of, and as such I personally prefer the idea of staying with our current system but making the stats within that system more interesting or adding things that can work within that system to make gear more interesting. Though this brings up another thing, horizontal progression and interesting stats aren't inherently the same thing. And there are also a number of different ways you can make horizontal progression work, from everything is entirely horizontal to more gear options in general to having a few ways to progress your character outside of raid that do make you more powerful but without increasing your item level. The last one is my preferred of those options, but there's definitely a debate that could be held on this whole topic, right back to adding gear longevity without any horizontal progression and actually making gear progression even more vertical.

I feel like, at this point, going pure horizontal would be next to impossible, but would it be worthwhile to add a new gear slot or two, entirely for adding effects? Like you can equip X item to give all your auto attacks AoE effects, or equip Y item to have auto attacks have a chance to heal you for a small amount like bloodbath. It'd give options for more effects without forcibly linking it to an item, meaning that the time spent earning it would actually be worthwhile, plus it'd never stop being worthless because it doesn't have to scale on it's own, it scales based on the rest of your gear.

Obviously I would consider two things required for this. First, have a simple basic item be available so that the slot doesn't stay empty (based on role, so healers can get a small boost to healing/DPS get small boost to damage/tankers get small boost to defense and enmity) and second would be that they would require actual time to put in (While high tier raids could drop them, I would say more they drop a piece for one, while dungeons drop various pieces that could be stacked into one). The issue is, right now there's not much in the game that I am aware of that would make for a good option for this (That wouldn't just feel like the relic grind) but obviously something could be added in 4.0 to work with it.

Mostly I'm just tossing out ideas. I feel like something you can equip and switch out for something else would be best, but as something not attached to the gear we currently have as slots. Maybe as the levels go higher you get the ability to slot more, but it wouldn't be too many at once.