WM - Why does it turn Bard's into DoT Casters?

[Greedalox]

brd and mch have turned into what Blm was at 50,

I can tell you now this isn't true. Merely an exaggeration in an attempt to push your idea.

[Cabalabob]

I can tell you now this isn't true. Merely an exaggeration in an attempt to push your idea.

It's actually quite an apt comparison if you think about it. Even their rotations are fairly similar.

50 BLM: cast your DoT for DoT procs. Cast your basic spell to proc another spell. Use your big nuke occasionally.
60 BRD: cast your DoTs for DoT procs. Cast your basic arrow to proc another arrow. Use your big arrow occasionally.

BLM cast times at 50 really weren't that strict, much like BRD's cast times aren't that strict now. However, when going to play BLM you know that cast times is what you're getting into. You have them from the start, it's what you're signing on for. With BRD it's tacked on after levelling it to 52. A little late in the job description.

I have the same gripe with the BRD job in general, playing archer you sign on for shooting things not singing, which is why so many BRDs don't use their songs, it's not what you signed on for. Really it just seems the entire class is a big bag of unwanted tricks getting shoved on it.

[Hasrat]

I have the same gripe with the BRD job in general, playing archer you sign on for shooting things not singing, which is why so many BRDs don't use their songs, it's not what you signed on for. Really it just seems the entire class is a big bag of unwanted tricks getting shoved on it.

More to the point, when do most of those early songs ever really shine? They just seem so situational that (personally) they can be totally ignored for the most part.

[Krindor]

snip

It's all due to balance, if BRD had the mobility they had in ARR and the DPS of a regular DPS, do you think anyone would pick different classes? See pre BRD nerf were they were at this level and you would have groups having multiple BRDs. If they dealt less than a regular DPS and had no support, why would you ever pick the class? The only way to input a archer DPS in the same way would be to limit it like a BLM were you got cast times and in that case the classes are too similar anyways.

As for WM, it was added to give the class some kind of skill level as it was a really easy class to play compared to the other classes. What actual use does WM have other than increasing thee skill ceiling? None, if BRDs had the same DPS as they do now but without WM it wouldn't make any difference balance wise. It would only be a really simple class to play.

[Khalithar]

It's all due to balance, if BRD had the mobility they had in ARR and the DPS of a regular DPS, do you think anyone would pick different classes?

I think people would if only because they might not like brd or prefer other classes. That being said however, WM/GB are here to stay and won't be going anywhere anytime soon. But I did want to add another point, the complaint that brd goes from a highly mobile dps that could shoot while dodging telegraphs and then suddenly become a caster class after 52+ levels is a perfectly valid one. It is a rather drastic change in playstyle after playing the class for that long and I do believe that the criticism of not liking that drastic playstyle change after 52+ levels is a perfectly valid one.

[Duelle]

It's all due to balance, if BRD had the mobility they had in ARR and the DPS of a regular DPS, do you think anyone would pick different classes? See pre BRD nerf were they were at this level and you would have groups having multiple BRDs.

You're forgetting that encounters at ARR's launch did not have mechanics aimed at ranged DPS. Melee had to deal with most stuff while ranged had little if anything to deal with. That's why people had multiple BRDs (in general raids stacked ranged DPS). The "problem" would have worked itself out if encounters had mechanics specifically aimed at ranged DPS. You have to encourage balanced raid comps anyway, so it would have also worked towards that goal.

[Krindor]

snip

Yes the mechanics in early ARR had those issues and that could be seen that groups would more or less avoid melees but even then, it's a ranged fight but people preffered BRD over the other ranged.
The problem is that BRDs even if they get mechanics still have 100% uptime unless the boss is invulnerable, a melee has to disengage at some point in most fights while a BLM/SMN has to move which reduces DPS, while a BRD as long as it isn't a stop attacking mechanic can shoot non-stop, at a level of DPS close to casters it would mean that BRD overall is superior in a fight as they will have higher DPS.

[RiceisNice]

Yes the mechanics in early ARR had those issues and that could be seen that groups would more or less avoid melees but even then, it's a ranged fight but people preffered BRD over the other ranged.
The problem is that BRDs even if they get mechanics still have 100% uptime unless the boss is invulnerable, a melee has to disengage at some point in most fights while a BLM/SMN has to move which reduces DPS, while a BRD as long as it isn't a stop attacking mechanic can shoot non-stop, at a level of DPS close to casters it would mean that BRD overall is superior in a fight as they will have higher DPS.

Even though in those same fights, once people get familiar with it you'd see less BRDs topping the meters over BLMs or even melee. At this point you're taking BRD (or MCH) for the group compisition and what htey provide rather than the numbers.

This also comes at the cost of all the ranged jobs essentially being casters at this point. You have no physical ranged dps in the traditional sense and BRD's toolkit suffers for it since their pre-50 traits were not designed with cast times in mind, on top of homogenizing their gameplay with MCH since GB is functionally the same for their purposes. To me it's less about the mobility (even though it can be primarily the reason that some people do not want to play a caster to begin with) but the design of ranged dps in general compared to it's peers. As a former BRD current MCH main, it's just disappointing to see their gameplay be homogenized into a psuedo caster, as well as to each other since they have the same basework with few layers.

[Duelle]

The problem is that BRDs even if they get mechanics still have 100% uptime unless the boss is invulnerable

There are other ways to reduce ranged uptime on a boss. The easiest one to throw in would be adds; specifically adds that are out of melee range. Objects or obstacles that explode (thus requiring ranged DPS to deal with it) are another way of deal with things. If your boss has multiple target points, place one out of melee range so that the ranged have to focus on it. Avoidable attacks that deal splash damage that target only ranged DPS would be another way. A debuff that targets ranged DPS that makes them explode for massive damage if they attack. A debuff that targets ranged DPS that forces them to run away from the group (thus not attack the boss) also works.

[Krindor]

snip

Of course but these mechanics would hit casters as well so even then the damage output of a BRD would be higher than the other ranged.
This is probably the largest reason why there exists no pure DPS archer type class and instead BRD was given the support role with songs, it's a way to make the class lucrative while not making people stack multiples of it.
Though as RiceisNice said, the damage of a caster gets better the longer they have done the fight due to beng able to position themselves.

On the topic of WB, while I definitely see why people dislike it. The problem would be what should be implemented instead, that still forces someone to play the class clever and skullfully. If you look at every class atm they have something that requires handling something in a smart way. BLM has resource management and movement planning, SMN is micro managing pet(probably more but don't know the class), MNK has their stack mechinc other than being a melee that requires positionals, DRG has to handle Botd, NIN has their mudras. What BRDs have without WB is songs and dots, songs are easy to manage and every class has some type of dots so the class required something to make them difficult. Which SE thinking WB being the best option.