On AST cards, AOE vs others

[DarkmoonVael]

I guess I did not realize this regarding Malefic II- I use gravity more frequently in dungeons so I did not give it enough thought, however, it is still worth using lightspeed to spam Gravity- in the 10 second window of lightspeed you can spam 4 Gravity's instead of only 3 in a normal 10 second window- those 4 gravity's even reduced at 25% are still (just slightly) more dps than 3 without lightspeed- but you have saved a ton of MP. If you aren't using lightspeed for anything else why would you not do it?

Edit: And regardless of this side topic about dps- on the original topic of spreading aoe buffs- they are still worth it because again, 50% less buff, but on 4X as many people

No its not. You get no extra casts of anything form lightspeed except in very niche circumstances. Lightspeed frontloads anything thats cast but still triggers the global cooldown, so there are no extra casts you get. The very very very very niche circumstance where you do get the extra cast of gravity off is if the mobs would die as the 4th gravity hits, however this is null and void since it takes that 4 th gravity cast under lightspeed to deal the same damage as 3 gravities cast with no light speed. Lightspeed is never worth it when dpsing.

Also for the math, 3 normal gravity deals 600 potency damage, 4 lightspeed gravity deals 600 potency damage as well. One takes 3 gcd, the other takes 4.

Lightspeed in dungeons is also used in pulls to heal, so yes, you should be using it for something else.....the dps loss on spells is not worth the mp retention.

Also with your edit, a enhanced balance on a summoner for trash pulls is worth more than an aoe balance, especally if you have a paladin tank or even a ninja as the other dps. Or if one dps decided to aoe and the other only single target in a mass pull, it makes the aoe balance significantly weaker than a enhanced or extended balance on a summoner/ aoe heavy class.

[Nekotee]

Nothing more to add
Since darky cover all the points

The minor point you could win with lightspeed gravity is the mp gain
Which is now the worst reason to do it since AST mana regen is glorious !
(But for that mp you get no more damage and 1 gcd loss.. pretty meeeeh)

As many people forget
Lightspeed only reduce the cast time not the recast time

I see lightspeed as a Oh Shit button very useful in time of crisis (like when I have blast spamming my gravity on the pack and forgot to heal my tank and now i have to save him)
(It was also very useful A1S when my co-heal et derp heal and I had to handle double prey double buster alone *awful memory*)

[Zaj_Quilos]

Obviously it's not an amazing increase but there is no issue with AOE'ing cards in 4 man content. It's not a priority but I still do it.

I have run with so many AST that aren't regularly drawing cards. They are the ones doing it wrong.

[Oohlalaheals]

No its not...

Makes sense, thank you for clarifying further.

The cards are of course always very situational depending on what cards are drawn and what classes you have in the group. I will definitely be keeping that more in mind when setting up my Royal Roads.

[Fived]

Obviously it's not an amazing increase but there is no issue with AOE'ing cards in 4 man content. It's not a priority but I still do it.

I have run with so many AST that aren't regularly drawing cards. They are the ones doing it wrong.

I agree 100% with this. AOE is not worth 'wasting' the cards drawn, but to not use it if it lines up, would be even more silly. 4 man content does not really have many/if any hard DPS checks, and bad DPS is bad DPS. So if it is going slowly killing mobs, an extra 10% on bad DPS is minimal. I mean, in 4 man, is there a huge difference between 500 and 550 DPS for half a minute? If you have good DPS, the mobs are dying quickly anyway and is a non issue.

[JackFross]

Also for the math, 3 normal gravity deals 600 potency damage, 4 lightspeed gravity deals 600 potency damage as well. One takes 3 gcd, the other takes 4.

Ahem.

The fourth Lightspeed Gravity would hit well before the third non-lightspeed Gravity.

You're saying "3 gcds" and "4 gcds" while ignoring the fundamental flaw in this discussion - Gravity has a 3s cast time compared to the 2.5s gcd. With lightspeed, each cast of Gravity takes 2.5s to refresh, without it, each Gravity takes 3s to cast.

If we assume you start both of these at the exact same time, here's what we're looking at:


So let's not pretend like this is a loss, when it absolutely is not.

To say nothing of the fact that these 4 Lightspeed Gravities that hit faster than the 3 hard-cast Gravities both deal the same amount of total damage and cost the same amount of total Mana. You can shave 1s off your total DPS cast time for the same damage, while still having Lightspeed ready to drop cleric and spam heals on your Tank after it stops.


It would be theoretically more effective to do G1>G2>swiftcast>G3, so THAT would beat out the Lightspeed approach. Let's just not poop out false/bad math pls.

[DarkmoonVael]

Ahem.

The fourth Lightspeed Gravity would hit well before the third non-lightspeed Gravity.

You're saying "3 gcds" and "4 gcds" while ignoring the fundamental flaw in this discussion - Gravity has a 3s cast time compared to the 2.5s gcd. With lightspeed, each cast of Gravity takes 2.5s to refresh, without it, each Gravity takes 3s to cast.

If we assume you start both of these at the exact same time, here's what we're looking at:


So let's not pretend like this is a loss, when it absolutely is not.

To say nothing of the fact that these 4 Lightspeed Gravities that hit faster than the 3 hard-cast Gravities both deal the same amount of total damage and cost the same amount of total Mana. You can shave 1s off your total DPS cast time for the same damage, while still having Lightspeed ready to drop cleric and spam heals on your Tank after it stops.


It would be theoretically more effective to do G1>G2>swiftcast>G3, so THAT would beat out the Lightspeed approach. Let's just not poop out false/bad math pls.

Actually i have a 2.7 second cast time on gravity, which is what i was remembering (near 2.5), which would have changed things differently. It would have made if this was the only thing that has changed.

However i have forgetten to factor in the change into recast time aka GCD change form the same modifiers.

However again, you are ignoring a fundemental part of this discussion when i state you get no extra casts from lightspeed. Factor in the last thing cast during lightspeed, the subsequent triggering of the global cooldown, then the hard casting of the next spell.

Also no matter how you look at it, 3 hard cast gravities trigger the global cooldown 3 times, 4 lightspeed cast gravities triggers it 4 times. It doesnt matter if the 4th cast of gravity under lightspeed is front loaded or not, there is a 4th global cooldown to deal with.

Also with what you have quoted me with, i am talking about global cooldown efficiency. And i am absolutley correct is saying that 4 of the same dps spells cast under lightspeed = same potency of 3 cast without.

Also pay attention to the quote i was responding to, where the claim is in a 10 second window with lightspeed, you can do more damage than without it, which, er, your maths seems to disagree with........so it agrees with what i am saying.

[JackFross]

Tries really hard not to have an aneurysm.

Actually i have a 2.7 second cast time on gravity, which is what i was remembering (near 2.5), which would have changed things differently. It would have made if this was the only thing that has changed.

And the recast time on Gravity is thereby lower. If you have a 2.7 second cast on Gravity, your GCD spins at 2.25s. All of the above calculations will still hold firm.

3x2.7 = 8.1s for your third Gravity to hit
3x2.25 + 0.2s cast time = 6.95s for my fourth Gravity to hit.

Nothing changes. Except for the fact that then after that 4th GCD spin, I'll only be 9s into my Lightspeed timer, allowing me to get one last swiftcast heal out.

However i have forgetten to factor in the change into recast time aka GCD change form the same modifiers.

Lightspeed does not affect a change in your GCD's spin. It doesn't affect the recast time at all.

However again, you are ignoring a fundemental part of this discussion when i state you get no extra casts from lightspeed. Factor in the last thing cast during lightspeed, the subsequent triggering of the global cooldown, then the hard casting of the next spell.

I literally just showed you a graph that shows you - without a doubt - that you gain +1 hit of Gravity in the exact same amount of time. The DPS will be identical when that 4th Gravity hits compared to when your third Gravity hits. I can follow this up with Cleric -> Essential Dignity -> Aspected Benefic (or just Benefic II with your GCD, since it'll be instant cast!) without skipping a beat. My Cleric drop happens a full second faster than yours, meaning my Essential Dignity is hitting before your heal is even beginning to cast.

Please actually look for a flaw in this logic, rather than spouting the same thing I disproved in my previous post (reproduced from your current post below).

Also no matter how you look at it, 3 hard cast gravities trigger the global cooldown 3 times, 4 lightspeed cast gravities triggers it 4 times.

You're just really enjoying completely ignoring the facts to keep spitting out the same concepts of discrete integers in a discussion of the continuum of time spent and how that relates to DPS and healing efficiency. Triggering the global cooldown fewer times does not change the fact that it takes longer before you can do anything else at the end of your third cast than I can at the end of my fourth.


I have yet to level AST to 60 myself, but this is all pretty common sense coming from number crunching and application of my extensive knowledge of healing on both WHM and SCH in these sorts of situations (dungeon trash garbage) before and since 3.0.

[DarkmoonVael]

I literally just showed you a graph that shows you - without a doubt - that you gain +1 hit of Gravity in the exact same amount of time. The DPS will be identical when that 4th Gravity hits compared to when your third Gravity hits. I can follow this up with Cleric -> Essential Dignity -> Aspected Benefic (or just Benefic II with your GCD, since it'll be instant cast!) without skipping a beat. My Cleric drop happens a full second faster than yours, meaning my Essential Dignity is hitting before your heal is even beginning to cast.

you see this right here, this is what i have been arguing from the start.

you know that cooldown on it that says "reduces attack magic potency", well that means under lightspeed, the 4 gravities you cast = the same damage as three without lightspeed.

Also i am confused why you are dropping clerics here, ASTs who know how to run dungeons wont be.

I have yet to level AST to 60 myself, but this is all pretty common sense coming from number crunching and application of my extensive knowledge of healing on both WHM and SCH in these sorts of situations (dungeon trash garbage) before and since 3.0.

A pull in a dungeon with a competent AST and you would not be dropping clerics where you seem to be arguing, you continue dpsing.

You're just really enjoying completely ignoring the facts to keep spitting out the same concepts of discrete integers in a discussion of the continuum of time spent and how that relates to DPS and healing efficiency. Triggering the global cooldown fewer times does not change the fact that it takes longer before you can do anything else at the end of your third cast than I can at the end of my fourth.

I really dont know what is going on with your reality. your table even disputes this fact, so i really dont know whats going on with you.

.

At 9 seconds with three gravity hardcast you are in a position where gravity has been cast. and the global cooldown has finished as its triggered at the start of the cast. this means at 9 seconds you are starting to cast something else.

With lightspeed, at 8 seconds you have triggered another global cooldown with the 4th cast of gravity. this means you now have to wait for the global cooldown to end until you can start casting another spell.lets take a GCD of 2.5 seconds. 8+2.5=10.5. You are waiting 10.5 seconds until you have done the same amount of damage and can start to cast something else. I am waiting 9. I have also done the same amount of dps you have.

You argue this is all common sense yet you have no experience. Your AST is lvl 37, and you clearly have no idea of how AST cooldowns are used in their entirety in a dungeon run or a raid. No AST worth anything would even dream of dropping clerics when you think they need to nor would they use their cooldown like you have guessed. And thats all this is coming down to isnt it? Guess work with zero exprience.

[JackFross]

The experience I'm quoting is running on Scholar and needing to drop Cleric to heal a tank (with fairy healing with Rouse) around 10s into an encounter when they pull a pull that's large enough to warrant spamming Gravity. This happens more often than not due to tanks with bad cooldown usage or other such things. Failure to HG that huge pull or properly BP>DA+AD/DA+DD+DA+DP or bloodbath overpower spam causes a healer a lot of undue stress. Divine Seal HoTs are also far more potent than just as good as Synastry ones.

Combined, WHM has 360 potency of heals every 3s compared to a paltry 216 366 with Synastry. This couples with a lack of stuns on Gravity and a 3s shorter duration on said healing potency to make me incredibly dubious of these remarks, is all.

I would just be shocked if AST could stay in cleric longer than either SCH or WHM before needing to heal.


That said - I don't disagree with you. The things you're saying make sense. I suppose my only real issue is just that I can't fathom any other halfway decent use for Lightspeed. It seems to me like a second Swiftcast on a 2.5x cooldown that neuters the only thing it'd be halfway decent for. I would be delighted if you'd enlighten me to places where that skill is actually useful outside of Swiftcast substitution (like an Ascend cast).