DRK tanking. A little bit of pain.

[Drkdays]

It's honestly not like I expect some sort of hotfix to make this change, it's an idea for future development of the class to reflect the strong lore surrounding Dark Knights, not just from SE but from other tales, anime, manga, comics, fantasy books, and simple artwork that depicts a strong character who follows the path that avoids sunlight, fighting while covered in his/her own blood and taking intentional damage to inflict any sort of wound on their enemy. Cecil of the Final fantasy series reflected this lore and his abilities matched it.I put forth the question that if he could do it why can't I? One could say, "Well Cecil wasn't a tank right? So of course losing health wouldn't be as dramatic." There were no tanks in the RPG FF games of ages past. It's not like fighting was really a multiplayer effort. But there were characters and class types who took less damage than others. Cecil was that type, often throwing out the strongest attacks and taking direct boss damage.

[Drkdays]

Perhaps it would require substantial changes. Changes that would change the entire make up for the class, but as it stands now I feel that DRK throws up a image of gritty darkness that their play style does not accurately reflect when compared to the characters who suffered through actual darkness with nobility, not just a slightly moody story where you for the space of a few quests "embraced the evil in you". I played Death Knight in World of Warcraft for several years and that class, along with others, ceased to have actually meaning past the exit door of the class quests. It became just a set of abilities that did such and so, especially after they began to neuter the game to make it more accessible for younger players. I see FF14 doing the same thing despite it being so heavily class story oriented.

[Drkdays]

When I play DRK I want to feel like I'm accomplishing something based on my playstyle even if that coms with a risk. That is how DRK do after all. The absolute heart of role playing games is not to maximize dps, or take the least amount of damage, or to out heal the other healer in the group, it's to be an active part of a story. The current DRK does not match my expectations when I think about what a Dark Knight is or does because right now, as fun as the class is to play, it's just another tanking class when it could be so much more. P.S. sorry for the breaks, my settings only allow 1k characters at a time. Is there a way to lengthen that? P.P.S. If I come of as arrogant or some how righteous about this it's not intentional. It's only because I DO feel strongly about this. I am a dedicated fan of this class and want to see it given the effort it deserves to be true to it's own lore.

[Fluffernuff]

P.S. sorry for the breaks, my settings only allow 1k characters at a time. is there a way to lengthen that?

Yes, there's a 1k character limit by default, but that limit is lifted when you EDIT your post, so instead of posting multiple times, you can just cut/paste into an edited post.

That said, the reason I and Jackfross have throw numbers around, is because of regardless of what we might WANT, it still needs to fit the mold of the game. I'm sure more than enough of us tanks would LOVE to be able to match fellcleave crits with weaponskills, but then whats the point of bringing DPS when we have something better that doesnt die?

I feel Dark Knight has alot of problems with itself, yes. but sacrificing HP for a class fantasy that purposefully doesnt exist in this game isnt my idea how to fix that. When i see DRK as it it, it's design, story, and EORZEAN lore scream "leech" tank. a highER damage, and hp DRAINING type tank (much like blood death knights were back in wrath of the lich king). That isn't what we have though.

I'd love to see our parry skill NOT give evade. I'd like to have DODGE synergy to fit with our meaningless blinds. I dont want to constantly shoot myself in the foot with my own abilities or use them in such a way that runs counter to THEMSELVES and my design. I'd love to have more than a 5minute cooldown that does NOTHING- OR kills me. but none of those changes are changes that makes the class PLAY different. it doesnt change CORE MECHAINICS.

sure. the numbers WOULD be moot AFTER the fact IF changes took place... but before changes like that can even be made, the numbers HAVE to be there. they cant just be conveniently ignored.

theres alot about design thats a balancing act. theres alot of potential butterfly effects that go on. thats why bugs and exploits exist. unforseen or ignored cracks in those holes. drastic complete overhauls are rarely the ansers to relatively minor concerns. I'm sorry if that seems condescending, but thats what this all is. wanting to change our cheapest skill to a different resource for the sake of class fantasy? Lore and class fantasy are RARELY concerns for sweeping changes, sad to say- especially when such changes could remove an entire class (of a role thats already starved for players) from the relevant meta.

DRK is actually in a pretty ok place right now, its just alot of our skills are very confused about what they want to do, and we dont really have a defining gimmick. we're not mitgation masters, and we're not spongy self-healers. we just have alot of extra attacks

[Drkdays]

[Drkdays]

It does feel like some of the skills are confused. They entered DRK as it is now when the game practically cried for another tanking class and they delivered. But at what cost? Perhaps in the end it would have made more sense as a dps class except that also according to lore DRk were always the first into the fray and wearing plate armor to boot. It's almost certain that such butterfly effects would happen, but I'd be deeply interested in playing such a high risk class. A specialized tank class that actually takes effort to play correctly, wouldn't that be terribly original compared to other MMO where you have "smash me in the face while I stand there" classes? As you said, and I don't take offense because your comments don't include name calling and overt "I've already told you you're wrong!" messages, I do desire changes for the sake of class fantasy, but I would argue that it would make the spending more challenging in some ways not less. Though as I've said there would be benefits to not burning through mana so quickly (noting what I said about acknowledging that it would require changes for it work correctly.)

[Venur]

Many MMO tries the I take HP over Mana route and they pretty much all fail exept when the class had self heals. The reason is simple. Why would you bring someone that require extra healing to do the same job as anyone else ?

[Drkdays]

Drk does have self heals, although weak ones. They could conceivably shift those scales to bring greater balance, much as they do for death Knights in wow. While drk cannot simply click a button to receive a hearty chunk of health as the other tanks can, I think what they have going is already pretty nice, especially with bloodbath the tank skill from warrior that any tank can use. The fact that they don't have those big self heals seems odd and unfinished anyways so why not modify for the better for this reason.

[Fluffernuff]

Drk does have self heals, although weak ones. They could conceivably shift those scales to bring greater balance, much as they do for death Knights in wow. While drk cannot simply click a button to receive a hearty chunk of health as the other tanks can, I think what they have going is already pretty nice, especially with bloodbath the tank skill from warrior that any tank can use. The fact that they don't have those big self heals seems odd and unfinished anyways so why not modify for the better for this reason.

Let's tally up all the skills we have access to that even heal us;

Souleater- under the effects of Grit; 100% damage leech.
Ok, cool. a 260 potecy "heal" every 7 seconds. reduced by 20% because grit. OR a 400 potency "heal" with Dark Arts, once again reduced by 20% AND for a 30% max MP cost. basically a 2k heal every 7 seconds for 2k MP.
that is worse than even Clemency. it would STILL be worse efficiency than Clemency even if it were scaled up to a 400% leech. and it's worse than equilibrium in ever considerable way.

Abyssal Drain- only under the effects of Dark Arts: 100% leech per target.
A 120 potency "heal for 50% HIGHER MP cost than our 400 potency "heal"? HA! that is pitiful and downright WORTHLESS for single target. until there's a time where there are legitimate AoE mechanics of any concern, this isnt even relevant. Not even worth considering single-target.

Sole Survivor: 20% HP restore and 20% MP restore if target dies within 15 seconds.
Oh look. a heal that does nothing in the middle of a fight. moving on.

oh man. looks like we''re done with DRK. huh. the only abilities that we have that can be tinkered with and none of them can even be scaled to be moderately useful. well... uh... that's ok! we have cross class skills! surely THEY will have great options for RELIABLE single target self heals that mean anything!

oh- ... OOHH... only... 2....... aaand theyre from warrior.. ok then.

Bloodbath: 25% PHYSICAL damage dealt as Leech- 15s duration
Oh look. our BEST self heal. And it doesnt even work with half of our abilities we use. AND it can't even be scaled for us because its not even our skill. AND its not even the 30s Warrior gets with it!
Well let's see. 15s ... i suppose we could go into healing mode and use it only with a Dark Arts SoulEater combo.. soo... over 15 seconds, 2 7.5 long combos... ok... so we will get 2 off
25% potency of a DASE combo is around 200. plus the 400 potency of DASE itself. double that, and we get 1200 cure potency closer to as a "regen" effect every 90 econds... that costs 60% our MP. Better than what PLD can muster with bloodbath, but they still get clemency, which is also a better cure:cost ratio than using bloodbath. huh

Mercy Stroke: 20% HP restore IF used as a killing blow, only usable on targets under 20% HP.
Oh look. its Sole Survivor again. without the MP restore. Without a 15s timer. It's not even our skill to be tweaked. looking alot worse as a self heal.

So excuse me if I laugh at the notion that DRK has "Self Heals". I can ONLY consider us having ONE, and the only other one we "have" is the unwanted leftover meat drippings from our big daddy Warrior. If something has to die, it's not a self heal. if something relies on multiple targets to scale, its not a self-heal. the "heals" we have cant even be compared to anything the other tanks have because they're just so much better.

Souleater's healing CAN be scaled to do ridiculous amouts of self healing. and the fact its a "free" heal every 7.5 seconds means scaling it could actually spiral it out of control, but under DA, its the least powerful, but still MOST EXPENSIVE heal out of EVERY tank, and thats laughable.

We have a total of 5 heals. 2 of which arent even ours. 3 of which arent even usable as "heals". discounting that 1 of those 2 "usuable" heals isnt even ours, we have ONE self heal. and it's pathetic. and it wont even HEAL unless we reduce it's heal by 20%

The few and pathetic heals we have are ONLY usuable in TRASH scenarios. our healing is literally limited to ANYTHING NOT A BOSS. i dont consider that self healing.

[Ekimmak]

Actually, Soul Eater can reduced by 8% instead 20%, if you use Darkside to boost the strength of the attack.

Clemency has it's own penalty of (A) a ridiculous MP cost for a class with less MP recovery options, and (B) a cast time, so you have to wait until after a big hit before casting it, which risks a healer of topping you off instead and wasting the MP, or you dying. If you try to pre-cast it for a tankbuster, it will be interrupted.