A (Highly Theoretical) Look at the Cycle of the Eras

[Cilia]

Well, we've not actually seen what Nidhogg is capable of...

I really refuse to accept that the split occurred during the First Umbral Era... That's far too much time...

No, we haven't. The fight in the Aery was against an effective cripple (only at 1/2 power and not even using his own power, while having said power turned against him). The Final Steps of Faith will have Nidhogg at his full power with no way to inhibit him, is an 8-man Trial, and he does cause some significant structural damage to the Steps of Faith based on what I saw in the Live Letter. I'm not inclined to believe he possesses calamitous power even at that level, but this will not be the relative joke of a fight we had with him in the Aery.

As for the moogles, recorded history only goes back about 1,500 years. 2,000 if you want to say we have some material from the tail end of the 5th Astral Era. There's also some history that can be gleaned from Allagan tomestones and tech, if you have the know-how to do so. Regardless, I think I remember somewhere that the first Umbral Calamity occured 10,000 years ago... which is not enough time to cause that significant a genetic shift as to create entirely separate species. A different pom-pom color (which is exactly what we got) is about what I'd expect. (And maybe for the Mists moogles to speak in a different accent, but hey...)

[Teiren]

Well, be careful about analyzing fights about difficulty based too much on gameplay. The fights are only there to tell a story. That is, they have to make stuff like the Nidhogg fight in The Aery a braindead joke so even the most incompetent players can get through it.

You don't seem to be doing that, but I'm just giving a reminder. Thinking about it from a story perspective, just like you are:
At the Aery, while he is crippled compared to what he could really do in the past or at full power, remember that he's still quite strong. Not only does he have a powerful flame breath but he also has considerable powers of telekinesis (moving the fire orbs and lifting people), which seems amazing to me for a dragon or really any creature. Maybe it's not telekinesis but something else that I don't understand? It looks like some kind of shadowy energy when he lifts people to try to crush them. Anyway, not only that, but we were only barely able to survive his Massacre attack thanks to Estinien's manipulation of the Eye. Though what do you mean by, "not even using his own power?"

I don't think the final fight against Nidhogg will be with him at full power. Based off the lore that I understand, it just doesn't make sense that we could stand up to him or do anything at all to him if he's at literally 100% power. I never did the Final Coil of Bahamut in ARR, though I did complete Second Coil recently, but wasn't the final encounter there against an alpha version of a rebuilt Bahamut? And that's the only reason we were able to stand up to him? Please correct me if I'm wrong as I've shied away from that story.

Anyway, I think there'll be some shred of Estinien left inside that'll hold Nidhogg back. We don't know the story yet. For anyone that knows Warcraft lore, it may bear many similarities to the relationship between Arthas and The Lich King.

[Anonymoose]

I never did the Final Coil of Bahamut in ARR, though I did complete Second Coil recently, but wasn't the final encounter there against an alpha version of a rebuilt Bahamut? And that's the only reason we were able to stand up to him? Please correct me if I'm wrong as I've shied away from that story.

The battle against Bahamut is an odd one, to say the least. Bahamut's corpse is being regenerated by a few internment hulks that managed to find their way to his surviving crystal core. That crystal "heart" is actually where the final battle takes place - you're teleported into it and face "Bahamut Prime" - the first and foremost manifestation of his essence. How exactly that works is something I don't understand very well, lol.

[Morningstar1337]

Though what do you mean by, "not even using his own power?"

When we faced him at the Aery, he lost both of hos own eyes. The location of one is obvious, but his other eye wound up embedded onto a corpse that was later transmutated into Ascalon, and used by Thordian.

If both of Nidhoggs eyes were off his boy, how come he has an eye, you may ask? that is mainly because after his eyes were gouged out, he asked Hraesvelgr to lend (or give) him one of HIS eyes, and that became his lifeline ever since

[Cilia]

Well, be careful about analyzing fights about difficulty based too much on gameplay...

Anyway, I think there'll be some shred of Estinien left inside that'll hold Nidhogg back. We don't know the story yet. For anyone that knows Warcraft lore, it may bear many similarities to the relationship between Arthas and The Lich King.

I know that gameplay and story don't always mingle. Otherwise late 3.x dungeon endbosses are objectively tougher to take down than some of the 2.x Primals, which makes no sense. Regardless Nidhogg was pitifully easy for a climax boss; his fight marks the end of the first act if Heavensward, but he's only a 4-man dungeon endboss and once the DPS learns to kill the Sable Prices goes down with little effort or fanfare. Yeah, he's got a one-shot like Primals, but other than that isn't all that challenging. True, you can't gauge story power based on gameplay difficulty... but he had only one borrowed eye (from Hraesvelgr) while having his own eye's power turned against him, inhibiting his performance considerably. This is observable in-game, as Nidhogg has a debuff for the entirety of the fight signifying his reduced performance.

We won't have that fortune this time. Nidhogg is going into this fight with his own full, true power, barring unforeseen circumstances. It won't be like last time.

There is a significant difference between fighting "Bahamut" and Nidhogg. The "Bahamut" we know is just a specter of the real Bahamut, brought back by Tiamat eons ago in the same vein as Ysayle's summoning of "Shiva." Thus, unlike "Bahamut" (a superpowered aetheric entity), Nidhogg is a flesh-and-blood living being, thus susceptible to being killed. Then again, his physical body died after the fight in the Aery, and the "Nidhogg" we're fighting now is just his lingering hatred that's possessed Estinien... has to do with their Eyes being their vitality sources. It's confusing. Either way, they're not the same type of being, probably.

The "Bahamut" faced at the end of the Coil is his core essence, not his full body, which hadn't been reconstructed by the Allagan internment hulks from the Calamity. He also wasn't at full power; given the "real Bahamut" is the size of a freakin' small country there's no way we could take him on at full power and live. The "Bahamut" faced at the end of the Coil, Bahamut Prime, is rather his core essence located inside the crystal heart of "Bahamut"'s body. How you get there... well, a wizard did it.

Whether Estinien can resist remains to be seen. Sohr Khai will more than likely be before the Final Steps of Faith, so whatever happens in and around there could change everything. Regardless, I don't know who, but we can be reasonably sure someone isn't going home after this fight...

[Belhi]

One other thing to take into consideration is when we first fight Nidhogg, while he isn't at full strength, neither are we. He has arguably been returned to full power (I'm not entirely sure if not having his original body might be an issue for him) but so have we. We have the full blessing of the light now, even stronger than before apparently, and I have a feeling we might have less depenancy on Hydaelyn to use it. It likely would work against his more powerful attacks. After all it kept Midgarsormr from oneshoting us.

Regardless it should be a good fight. Im still betting on us using the Echo on him at the end of the fight to pull Nidhogg and Estinien apart.

[Rocl]

I hadn't really thought of that but it's a nice mirror. We managed to separate Ascian Prime, we should be able to separate Estinihogg.

[Cilia]

The Ascian Prime and Estinien-Nidhogg are two different cases.

Dialogue before and after the Ascian Prime fight suggests they're violating the laws of the world to go into that form. Lahabrea states the power of the Echo (which all Ascians possess) can be used to break down the barriers of existence, while the Ascian Prime's dying scream is "What walls are these?! Damn you, Hydaelyn!" Both Lahabrea and Igeyorhm are also willing participants, so what we did was beat the Ascian Prime down until it couldn't maintain its causal violation and separated back into the two Ascians. Our Echo didn't factor into it at all, probably, maybe, I think.

Estinien-Nidhogg, on the other hand, seems to be a textbook case of possession. Nidhogg's lingering will is possessing Estinien's body and overriding his will (how it reconstituted his form I don't know, but hey, magic). It won't be as easy (or simple) as just beating him up until Nidhogg leaves Estinien's body; in fact, killing him may be part of Nidhogg's revenge in an effort to plunge us into further despair. I'm not precluding saving Estinien; in fact, I'm quite certain it's something many players want (and the WoL borderline needs at this point). Just sayin' it could end tragically just as easily.

[Nalien]

Regardless, I think I remember somewhere that the first Umbral Calamity occured 10,000 years ago... which is not enough time to cause that significant a genetic shift as to create entirely separate species.

I'd expect some variation, given the drastically different climates and fact that the Botanist quests touched on a similar subject with Gyshal Greens...

A different pom-pom color (which is exactly what we got) is about what I'd expect.

Did we get that? Last I checked the Twelveswood Mogglesguard had different pom colours, so I'd hardly put it down to genetic variation following 1,000 or 10,000+ years of separation...

Good King Moggle Mog XII bothers me as well... If he existed 1,000 years ago, I can kind of get him only showing up as a Primal now, given now is when most of the sh*t is going down causing panicked Primal summoning... If he existed 10,000+ years ago... We know of two major events that would (and one that indeed did) warrant Primals... Honestly amazed they survived Allag, oh sure they have natural stealth capabilities, but wouldn't that just make them all the more interesting to experiment on? Amon would have been all over that... Really, how is this their only legend? One group tells of a group that left for the surface, the other tells of a king that guided them to the surface, and then all of history happened and somehow the War of the Magi and the Allagan Conquest, and lord knows what came before that, weren't remotely eventful for them?

I don't care if they are 10,000+ years old, I find that stupid... Perhaps the daily quests will flesh their lore out enough to make it less stupid though, or perhaps Nidhogg will prove himself capable of destroying a floating continent, which honestly shouldn't be too hard, I've been mining up there long enough that I should have dug through the damn thing by now, an angry wyrm can probably do a lot more a lot faster... Only problem is that the continent was apparently destroyed by wind alone, but the Aery is right there... Wind was his last line of defense and... Well, I doubt he flew around spitting fire and eating up townsfolk right after his near-death experience... I mean, he just got beaten by an old guy, his son, and twelve knights... Sure he killed a few, but they now also had both his eyes, and we saw what Estinien could do with one those... He probably just violently churned up the winds around his Aery for protection and caused a lot of damage in the process, while his hoard and proto-Ishgard tore themselves to pieces... I mean, this is a floating continent... How stable can it possibly be? I'd be worried to sneeze while standing on one of those islands, chances are I'd propel it off somewhere new...

[Belhi]

The Ascian Prime and Estinien-Nidhogg are two different cases.

Dialogue before and after the Ascian Prime fight suggests they're violating the laws of the world to go into that form. Lahabrea states the power of the Echo (which all Ascians possess) can be used to break down the barriers of existence, while the Ascian Prime's dying scream is "What walls are these?! Damn you, Hydaelyn!" Both Lahabrea and Igeyorhm are also willing participants, so what we did was beat the Ascian Prime down until it couldn't maintain its causal violation and separated back into the two Ascians. Our Echo didn't factor into it at all, probably, maybe, I think.

Estinien-Nidhogg, on the other hand, seems to be a textbook case of possession. Nidhogg's lingering will is possessing Estinien's body and overriding his will (how it reconstituted his form I don't know, but hey, magic). It won't be as easy (or simple) as just beating him up until Nidhogg leaves Estinien's body; in fact, killing him may be part of Nidhogg's revenge in an effort to plunge us into further despair. I'm not precluding saving Estinien; in fact, I'm quite certain it's something many players want (and the WoL borderline needs at this point). Just sayin' it could end tragically just as easily.

I don't disagree. However the Echo is the ability to effectly pass the barriers between souls. Up to know we really have been using it very passively. Considering that each Echo is unique, we have little idea what the true characteristics of the WoL's echo actually is considering the passive abilities we have been using seem universal. The Echo can do a lot more than we have used it for.

For that reason I could see us reaching into Estinien's soul and hauling Nidhogg out.

Frankly in the 'growing power' of the WoL, I see the Echo as a far more potentially creepy power. The Echo quite clearly has the potential to be used for very bad things. Considering the Ascians also have the Echo and the Ascian Prime is 'closer to their true form' it makes me question how much different we truly are to them in our 'nature' beyond experience and intention.