Xeno believes paladin should NEVER be main tank

[Violette]

PLD will pull out more dps when mt. Compared to WAR, it benefits from blocking attacks, like shield swipe oGCD.

The lone fact, that pld can benefit from getting hit in the face, while war do not, makes it better MT in terms of max possbile dps output.

...........
But no.

[Sarcatica]

As a matter of fact, in the most ideal setup where 1 job has to MT, WAR will still win no matter what. No matter what you do as whatever tank, if you play like a wuss and just chug tank stance 100% of the fights, you will do shit DPS regardless.

The argument lies in Butcher's Block being WAR's best potency skill while being their way to get enmity. So there is 100% no real downside, exception being if the WAR has to use Path/Eye frequently, else it's Eye/Block all the way. As PLD, you are losing DPS every single time you use RoH (260pot vs 350pot). As DRK, every time you use Power Slash, you lose the mana to enable more DPS.

What's so surprising? This has been the topic for MT/OT slot for a long time now. Nothing new.

[Reynhart]

The argument lies in Butcher's Block being WAR's best potency skill while being their way to get enmity. So there is 100% no real downside, exception being if the WAR has to use Path/Eye frequently, else it's Eye/Block all the way. As PLD, you are losing DPS every single time you use RoH (260pot vs 350pot). As DRK, every time you use Power Slash, you lose the mana to enable more DPS.

It doesn't matter if BB is WAR's most potent skill. Providing you have the slashing debuff already applied (by a WAR OT for example) any DRK combo (Except non-DA SoulEater) has a higher or equal potency than BB combo. So, even if you "lose" some DPS potential, your rotation will still technically gives your more DPS than a WAR.

What sets WAR apart is Fell Cleave, Bersek, and the ability to stance dance more easily. But if you count "lost DPS", then WAR loses more by using Inner Beast or Unchained instead of Fell Cleave than anything DRK or PLD could "lose".

[Februs]

I question whether this is true. They gain Shield Swipe proc, but they also have to lose potency from needing to RoH or staying in ShO for x amount of time.

I wonder about this as well, especially because Shield Swipe was nerfed pretty hard when they took it off the GCD. It's not nearly as much of a dps gain as it could, or should, have been.

In any case, I don't think it's as black and white as Xeno claims, but it's definitely an old issue. I just think that a lot of us have just given up discussing it, because I don't think anyone expects SE to ever actually do anything about it. They won't even admit that there is a problem, after all. Their long standing position has been that Pld is "working as intended," and they frequently cite Pld's "superior defense" as their number one excuse for why they never doing anything meaningful with the job. Given that this excuse was outed as a bald-faced lie ages ago, I'm more surprised that they haven't just admitted they don't care instead of continuing to cling to pointless pretenses ...

[Sarcatica]

It doesn't matter if BB is WAR's most potent skill. Providing you have the slashing debuff already applied (by a WAR OT for example) any DRK combo (Except non-DA SoulEater) has a higher or equal potency than BB combo. So, even if you "lose" some DPS potential, your rotation will still technically gives your more DPS than a WAR.

I was mentioning in the most ideal setup where you don't ever need IB for mitigation, meaning that you rely on CDs to save your ass. This is where WAR will shine of which having WAR MT will accomplish 1 thing: your co-tank will get way more dps (better raid DPS), in exchange of your 5 stacks for Unchained which isn't that big. Of course without IB, WAR is gonna be relying a lot more from healers to top, so it's always a trade down or up depending on situation.

This is also why a lot of the groups like to have WAR slave open the pull instead of the MT.

[Reynhart]

I was mentioning in the most ideal setup where you don't ever need IB for mitigation, meaning that you rely on CDs to save your ass.

But this ideal setup is meaningless if it doesn't happen in real content.
I don't play WAR, but I really doubt there is any challenging content where WAR can MT without IB.

[Violette]

But this ideal setup is meaningless if it doesn't happen in real content.
I don't play WAR, but I really doubt there is any challenging content where WAR can MT without IB.

By the time you swap from MT to OT as war, you've used other cooldowns to mitigate damage.
I.E. A8S pulls.

[Shinzee]

This is where WAR will shine of which having WAR MT will accomplish 1 thing: your co-tank will get way more dps (better raid DPS)

Sorry but absolutely wrong, the worst thing you can do to a drk is taking away the MT slot to gimp the potential of a drk. Losing the MT slot costs you a lot mp from blood price, costs you reprisal and low blow procs. Theres nothing more nice than gritless MT and swimming in MP due to blood price and weap on cd. Also about enmity if you open a fight and use depending on the fight 1 or 2 enmity rotas in grit in best case with a nin using shadewalker you are safe to drop grit and ignore powerslash there wont be enmity problems. If a war OT happens to rip enmity while the rest of the pt got a lot leeway the fault isnt at the MT but rather the warrior who is setting their 20 potency gain from block over eye as more valuable than the 80 pot a pld loses or the 884 mp 10 pot and 10 tp a drk loses.

[Reynhart]

By the time you swap from MT to OT as war, you've used other cooldowns to mitigate damage.

But, if WAR does not use Inner Beast, then suddenly, it doesn't reduce more damage than PLD or DRK, especially out of tank stance. Isn't that the main point of Xeno's quote ?

Besides, if WAR opens as MT and gains a lot of enmity, then, after the swap, the other tank will benefit from all this enmity to stay ahead of the party. And since the enmity of savage blade was increased, you actually don't need as much RoH as before. Especially if you have a NIN in your setup to play with enmity.

And finally, if the fight requires frequent swap, then there's no reason discussing who is OT and who is MT

[Yuni_Queen]

...........
But no.

max possible dps output.
Read again.
One more time.

If War is MT, he is locking out PLD from one oGCD with 15 cooldown, which is lowering maximal possible damage paladin would be able to deal, if he was MT.