People who ignore their threat guage

[Aquaslash]

Except "properly geared" has a very wide swath of meaning. Fractal and Neverreap have an iLvl 145 barrier to entry, and only scale people down to 210, last I checked (could be 180). If you're in full Eso on your Dragoon and you get in there with a fresh-to-60 tank who didn't know to use the Esos they got from ARF on a weapon, they're "properly geared" according to the game, but you still out-gear them by 65 levels. Even if I'm mistaken and its a 35-point gap to 180, a "properly geared" tank is going to need your help to hold hate off you when you out-gear them so. If you refuse to slow down and tear hate off of them at every turn, not only are you taking avoidable damage, but you're doing little more than wagging your e-peen around in the dungeon.

That's not what anyone means by properly geared, and you know it. I'm sure there's a word for such a silly jump to conclusions, but I don't know it so the hell with it. Right off the gate, if I'm in Neverfun, and I see that the poor tank is rocking law gear or even worse, as far as I'm concerned, that's under-geared, and woefully so. I'm probably not gonna bother with anything more than my base rotation at that point. I might even just quit, cause I really really hate that place.

Not that are worth tearing mobs and bosses off the tank and taking unnecessary damage.

bosses

bosses

If the tank has his tank stance, and I tear hate off of him in a boss that tank is bad. Full stop. By the time I get to Full Thrust in my opener, he should have a commanding lead on aggro. The ONLY time this is acceptable is open world hunts because the gear discrepancies are THAT big.

Please do, because the tank will have a much better time with someone who understands that enmity management is a group responsibility. And just in case you missed it, I'll reiterate my point: The primary job of the DPS role is to avoid any and all damage that can be avoided, so that you do not in any way risk dying. If you die, you do 0 DPS. DPS jobs are ill-equipped to soak damage, and while they may have a handful of defensive cooldowns, they don't have anywhere near the same tools for it that a tank does.

First and foremost, if I steal hate off a single mob, then I fully intend to kill that mob by myself. If I should somehow miraculously die, then the fault is mine, not because I stole aggro, but because I didn't do enough damage to kill the thing. By all means though, that never happens because there isn't an add in the game that can survive long enough the the point where I can steal aggro and it kills me. By the time I've even stolen aggro, it's generally at less than 5% and dotted to hell and back. That's why I'm so unforgiving of tanks failing to hold hate against me, because I generally have to WORK to steal the damned aggro in the first place. Or at least I do if they're not shitty tanks, which is the only reason I should ever have to watch my aggro.

A tank should be doing everything they can to take and hold hate, but sometimes that isn't enough. That's when you need to be willing to hold back a little bit. No, it's not fun, but skipping a GCD or two for the tank's benefit is not the end of the world. It's all well and good if you can put out huge numbers, but you need to be ready, willing, and able to take responsibility for them.

Hold back for the tank? Hold back for anyone?
Do you know what I hate more than anything else in a dungeon? Big pulls. In fact. I passionately hate big pulls. I find my AoE abilities to not only do pathetic damage, but waste TP, even with invigorate, and the mobs don't die any faster. I would much rather deal with small packs where I can easily spread dots and debuffs and keep a steady rotation flow going. You know how many tanks accommodate this? ZERO. You know how many tanks wanna pull entire goddamn rooms when the DPS composition is a DRG and a NIN? ALL OF THEM. Half the time, I'm lucky if the tank moves something to where I can access its rear and flank. So since you tanks don't ever hold back for me, why on Hydealyn should I bother returning the favor?

[Jpec07]

That's not what anyone means by properly geared, and you know it. I'm sure there's a word for such a silly jump to conclusions, but I don't know it so the hell with it. Right off the gate, if I'm in Neverfun, and I see that the poor tank is rocking law gear or even worse, as far as I'm concerned, that's under-geared, and woefully so. I'm probably not gonna bother with anything more than my base rotation at that point. I might even just quit, cause I really really hate that place.

So you admit to holding back when you know a tank is incapable of keeping hate off you. Good to know.

And you're right; I did take your words to mean something you clearly didn't. Was feeling a bit fiesty yesterday, so I let some fallacious arguments in, and for that I apologize. The point stands that an undergeared tank will have difficulty against a well-geared player. In general, ~30 iLvls is pretty safe (they just may have to use their enmity combo more), but more than that, and your tank may start cursing your existence to their FC if you don't hold back.

If the tank has his tank stance, and I tear hate off of him in a boss that tank is bad. Full stop. By the time I get to Full Thrust in my opener, he should have a commanding lead on aggro. The ONLY time this is acceptable is open world hunts because the gear discrepancies are THAT big.

Maybe see if the tank needs some advice? Not really required, but if you keep pulling off of them, and they appear to be geared, it might be a win-win if you check to make sure they know the basics of the job/role. There's also the issue of Neverreap and Fractal where there can be a 65-point gear gap. That's pretty insurmountable, even for a WAR in Defiance.

First and foremost, if I steal hate off a single mob, then I fully intend to kill that mob by myself. If I should somehow miraculously die, then the fault is mine, not because I stole aggro, but because I didn't do enough damage to kill the thing.

It wouldn't happen if you didn't steal the mob in the first place.

By all means though, that never happens because there isn't an add in the game that can survive long enough the the point where I can steal aggro and it kills me. By the time I've even stolen aggro, it's generally at less than 5% and dotted to hell and back. That's why I'm so unforgiving of tanks failing to hold hate against me, because I generally have to WORK to steal the damned aggro in the first place. Or at least I do if they're not shitty tanks, which is the only reason I should ever have to watch my aggro.

Even if it can't kill you, you're still taking damage you could have avoided.

Hold back for the tank? Hold back for anyone?

Yep. That's right. You should do that if the situation calls for it.

Do you know what I hate more than anything else in a dungeon? Big pulls. In fact. I passionately hate big pulls. I find my AoE abilities to not only do pathetic damage, but waste TP, even with invigorate, and the mobs don't die any faster. I would much rather deal with small packs where I can easily spread dots and debuffs and keep a steady rotation flow going. You know how many tanks accommodate this? ZERO. You know how many tanks wanna pull entire goddamn rooms when the DPS composition is a DRG and a NIN? ALL OF THEM. Half the time, I'm lucky if the tank moves something to where I can access its rear and flank. So since you tanks don't ever hold back for me, why on Hydealyn should I bother returning the favor?

Sounds to me like you've gotten a long string of really mediocre tanks who fail to recognize the strengths and weaknesses of their group comp. A good tank will adjust their pulls and their pacing to accommodate the group's ability to do AoE DPS, and will only do ginormous pulls if they have a well-geared SMN or MNK, or maybe an extremely-geared BLM or BRD (or if the party consists of ONLY those classes). Small pulls are much better for every other job/comp, because they don't have great AoE, but excel at single-target - the dungeon will actually go faster with daisy-chained small pulls in a low-AoE comp than if you pull everything at once. On this we can agree.

[Aquaslash]

So you admit to holding back when you know a tank is incapable of keeping hate off you. Good to know.

The long and short of it is that all I'm asking for is basic competency in their role. For any tank that is on an equal gear level with me (let's call that within ten ilvls or a level synced instance), this means that they can establish and hold hate without my interference. The only times I should ever have to hold back are massive gear discrepancies, and botched pulls on bosses, where there's generally derps all around anyway. Tanks have more than enough tools in their arsenal to do this with ease, especially at endgame levels.

Not only is this the simple standard I hold all tanks to, but it is the standard I hold myself to when I dabble in tanking. It's bad enough that I get lost in literally every dungeon, but so long as I have defiance on, if I lose aggro and someone gets rekt because of it, it is 100% my fault, and I'll never ask them to hold back. I'll just get better.

It wouldn't happen if you didn't steal the mob in the first place.

The point is that I shouldn't be able to even steal mobs from tanks so long as they have their tank stance on.

Even if it can't kill you, you're still taking damage you could have avoided.

Moot point because at that point, I'll have either killed it before it even hit me, or I can self heal away whatever pitiful damage it did and inconvenience no one

Yep. That's right. You should do that if the situation calls for it.

But you know what the shitty part is? This is slightly unrelated but imma spin it anyway. People against DPS meters say that I should be able to tell how much damage I'm doing by watching the aggro meter. But now people like you are telling me purposefully put myself at the bottom of the aggro meter. Well gee wilikers batman! What am I supposed to do now?

The even worse part is, said tanks who I'd have to hold back for will then start bitching about poor DPS. I'll never be a good DPS at this rate :|

[StouterTaru]

A BLM with 14k HP will be hit about twice as hard as a tank with 13k who uses their cooldowns appropriately - and the BLM also has zero capacity to deal with tankbusters. If that overzealous BLM pulls the boss off the tank, they generally will go splat.

Except there's no real "bosses" where that applies to.

Dungeon bosses typically don't have tank busters, in fact I take less damage as a BLM when I pull hate on Neverreap 2nd boss (morrowcloud never goes after #1 on the threat list).

With normal primals, you start out with all CDs, and a tank in tank stance should have no issue grabbing hate asap and holding it.

In raids/ex primals, if your BLM has more HP than your tank, your tank shouldn't be there.

For dungeon trash, if the tank can't hold hate on everything in a big pull, they shouldn't be big pulling. If they can't hold hate on everything in a small pull, that's just sad.