People who ignore their threat guage

[Rawrz]

Typically classes will want to maximize dps, but I couldn't see someone attacking an off target unless Dots are up on main/aoe is no longer worth it/aoe is too resource intensive.

As a scholar I'll Dots, bane, shadowflare, aero spam EVERY target (if I'm sure they will all survive), redot/bane if applicable and then broil the mob with the highest health, because to attack a mob that is already stacked with dots and within death from those dots, is a dps loss. This results in aggro some of the time, but most tanks manage or the mob dies before it gets to me.

[Aquaslash]

Hmm so sounds like nothing about enmity there then. maybe they should do this...let them start and then if they do anything early have a message pop up saying "seven hells! you attracted attention because you was the first person to take action on the enemy. wait for the tank and watch your enmity bar or else the mobs will turn on you" or something lol. There should also be something in there abut if they do get aggro a message saying "run towards the tank because pray tell he has the tools to save you. If you run away from him it makes it harder for him to save you". "Just remember to always keep an eye on that there guage!". It's a shame if the other jobs aren't getting some sort of tuition, however basic, on enmity control.



Yeah I've noticed that

Bruh. Have you ever played a DPS? Like ever? The things you suggest would make any DPS a woefully garbage one. We are NOT overflowing with tools to help you keep aggro. Speaking as a DRG main, all I got is elusive jump and that has a 3 minute cooldown. If I rip hate, elusive jump to give it back, and then take hate again because you can't hold aggro, then if you're as well geared as you claim to always be, then you are a bad tank.

Emnity is 100% your problem and yours alone, ESPECIALLY once you get your tank stance. You have the balls to imply that I need to essentially do less DPS, aka be bad at my job just so you can hold hate and do yours? How about you literally git gud.

I know it's rough starting out. I'm just learning WAR, and I lose hate all the time in the early levels. It's not the healers fault, I just need to overpower and flash more...and maybe move flash to the start of my cross class list so I can use it in Satasha and junk. I dunno, I'm still working it out

[StouterTaru]

This whole thread reminds me of my favorite DF tank comment ever:

PLD: maybe dps shouldn't attack
PLD: dps 101

[LeeraSorlan]

this is the same guy that shield lobs and waits for enemies to run to him

and the same guy that says he is unable to flash immediately upon engaging with enemies because he has to run out of the aoes that they use.


<_< cant winnem all. DF tanks these days

[Jpec07]

If someone starts attacking different targets (and they're not just spamming AoE, and I have markers out), I'll usually call them out by name and ask them to follow the kill order.

If that works, we continue.

If that doesn't work, we continue, and I may let them pull off of me while complaining to my FC about how Dragoons don't know how to freaking count.

EDIT: had to comment on something.

Emnity is 100% your problem and yours alone, ESPECIALLY once you get your tank stance. You have the balls to imply that I need to essentially do less DPS, aka be bad at my job just so you can hold hate and do yours? How about you literally git gud.

Yes. What he is suggesting is exactly right. If a tank is doing everything right and you are still pulling off of them, then you are performing poorly in your role. Remember, a dead DPS deals no DPS, so your primary job is to avoid damage and stay alive. That is accomplished in most group contexts by letting the tank tank; and if the tank is struggling to keep off of you, despite doing everything right, then it falls to you to help enable them so that you can survive. Slow your rotation down. Stop dealing damage for a few seconds. Let them get an extra enmity combo off to rebuild a solid hate lead. But by no means should you ignore their plight; doing so consciously ruins the experience for them, and has strong potential to make you dead.

Let's put it this way: enmity management is the job of everyone in the group. Tanks should be able to control it well enough when they are geared, but it is still something everyone needs to work together on. Just like you wouldn't stand in an AoE marker to preserve your rotation, you shouldn't pull off the tank. Doing so is tantamount to taking avoidable damage, which is something good players don't do.

[Aquaslash]

If someone starts attacking different targets (and they're not just spamming AoE, and I have markers out), I'll usually call them out by name and ask them to follow the kill order.

If that works, we continue.

If that doesn't work, we continue, and I may let them pull off of me while complaining to my FC about how Dragoons don't know how to freaking count.

EDIT: had to comment on something.



Yes. What he is suggesting is exactly right. If a tank is doing everything right and you are still pulling off of them, then you are performing poorly in your role.

Sounds more like he's shit at his role. If he's properly geared and doing everything right, then I should NEVER be able to steal hate, especially as a god damn dragoon. I should be able to go balls to the walls 100% of the time without a care in the world about pulling aggro. Hell, that's what happens all the time when tanks are even halfway competent.

Slow your rotation down.

Cause I totally don't have dots to keep up and buffs to maintain or anything like that.

Stop dealing damage for a few seconds.

If I EVER have to do this for the sole purpose of the tank holding aggro, and after I've used Elusive Jump, then I'll take the 30 minutes and go crafting. I don't even like doing that shit when I'm healing, and you want me to not punch things in the face when my primary job is to punch things in the face?

[Jpec07]

Sounds more like he's shit at his role. If he's properly geared and doing everything right, then I should NEVER be able to steal hate, especially as a god damn dragoon. I should be able to go balls to the walls 100% of the time without a care in the world about pulling aggro. Hell, that's what happens all the time when tanks are even halfway competent.

Except "properly geared" has a very wide swath of meaning. Fractal and Neverreap have an iLvl 145 barrier to entry, and only scale people down to 210, last I checked (could be 180). If you're in full Eso on your Dragoon and you get in there with a fresh-to-60 tank who didn't know to use the Esos they got from ARF on a weapon, they're "properly geared" according to the game, but you still out-gear them by 65 levels. Even if I'm mistaken and its a 35-point gap to 180, a "properly geared" tank is going to need your help to hold hate off you when you out-gear them so. If you refuse to slow down and tear hate off of them at every turn, not only are you taking avoidable damage, but you're doing little more than wagging your e-peen around in the dungeon.

Cause I totally don't have dots to keep up and buffs to maintain or anything like that.

Not that are worth tearing mobs and bosses off the tank and taking unnecessary damage.

If I EVER have to do this for the sole purpose of the tank holding aggro, and after I've used Elusive Jump, then I'll take the 30 minutes and go crafting. I don't even like doing that shit when I'm healing, and you want me to not punch things in the face when my primary job is to punch things in the face?

Please do, because the tank will have a much better time with someone who understands that enmity management is a group responsibility. And just in case you missed it, I'll reiterate my point: The primary job of the DPS role is to avoid any and all damage that can be avoided, so that you do not in any way risk dying. If you die, you do 0 DPS. DPS jobs are ill-equipped to soak damage, and while they may have a handful of defensive cooldowns, they don't have anywhere near the same tools for it that a tank does. A tank should be doing everything they can to take and hold hate, but sometimes that isn't enough. That's when you need to be willing to hold back a little bit. No, it's not fun, but skipping a GCD or two for the tank's benefit is not the end of the world. It's all well and good if you can put out huge numbers, but you need to be ready, willing, and able to take responsibility for them.

[WhiteArchmage]

snip

This exactly, say I go as a SMN intro Fractal and happen to get a fresh faced lvl 60 tank who's struggling enough against the synched down i230 DRG's onslaught that he's only pulling small groups. Now I know that I could use all the tools in my arsenal, Painflare, Bane, Deathflare and do more DPS but...would I, really? He's already having trouble keeping hate against one overeager DPS in single-target, so the second my Deathflare hits I'm getting 2 or more mobs to the face, the healer is busy enough keeping the undergeared tank alive so I'm dead in 2 seconds. Any DPS I could have contributed will have to wait until the healer raises me or I run back from the start of the dungeon.

If I pull back my deeps, only using Bane, festers and Quelling Strikes on my Deathflare, would I get bored? maybe. Would I be tempted to pull out Titan-egi? maybe. Would I be contributing more to the run by sticking to his target and pulling my punches instead of having mobs all over the place? hell yes.

[Kabooa]

Except "properly geared" has a very wide swath of meaning. Fractal and Neverreap have an iLvl 145 barrier to entry, and only scale people down to 210, last I checked (could be 180).

It's 210.

But at that point, the 14k hp Black Mage is nearly as durable as the 13k tank. In other words, it's basically a non-factor.

[Jpec07]

It's 210.

But at that point, the 14k hp Black Mage is nearly as durable as the 13k tank. In other words, it's basically a non-factor.

Not really, no. In fact, this is so wrong that I'm not sure how you can say it with a straight face.

14k on a BLM doesn't go anywhere near as far as 13k on a tank, because in addition to the passive mitigation that tank has from the Def, M.Def, and Parry on their gear, the tank also has their tank stance (read: 20% extra mitigation), as well as a wide bevy of abilities they can use to reduce the damage they're taking. A BLM with 14k HP will be hit about twice as hard as a tank with 13k who uses their cooldowns appropriately - and the BLM also has zero capacity to deal with tankbusters. If that overzealous BLM pulls the boss off the tank, they generally will go splat.