Can Monk Outweigh the Support of Either a DRG or NIN?

[Morzy]

Even with the recent buff to MNK I've seen players still say the best combo is DRG/NIN and I'm curious what your take on it is.

Can a MNK outweigh the support, mainly DPS support, that a NIN or DRG would give?

Honestly even with the recent buffs I don't believe we can.. And that sucks. I hate feeling like I'm gimping my team just cause I play the one job I really love, only because SE made MNK out as a black sheep.

And if we COULD, you'd better be able to play it right, cause this isn't a job you just pick up n run with..


Personally I don't mind it too much. I like the sense of dependence it gives us because our scaling comes more from our DPS, not a skill that helps others DPS(unless you count Ifrit). Problem is it doesn't feel like we scale enough with DRG/NIN in a 8-man raid environment..

[Rawrz]

Monk brings the Highest personal DPS in the game, Dragonkick, and Mantra. I think their "support" or worth to the party is at par with Ninja and Dragoon easily.

[whiskeybravo]

As a DRG I don't care if it's monk or nin really. My main groups for both gordias and midas savage we ran drg/mnk, and it certainly never prevented us from making progress (from a dps/utility/party comp point of view). TBH my preference lies with mch over bard more than anything.

Monk is in an interesting spot I think. I don't raid much with monk, but I predominantly run my dungeons on monk and it blows dragoon and ninja out of the water when it comes to aoe-fest pulls. I don't know how much that weighs down SE's consideration to add more raid utility, but in an overall sense it feels pretty balanced IMO. And, not trying to generalize, but the only real reason I can see for someone to get stuck on taking a nin over a monk would be because they want to inflate their egos with higher dps. Other than certain situations like going for a speed kill or something where you'd want to highly optimize the party comp, there's really no good reason to exclude one over the other.

[boring]

no, 10char

[PFM]

Can you do ~2% more DPS than a Dragoon does?
Congrats you're now more useful than having a dragoon, supposing you never die.

[Slyqc]

Can you do ~2% more DPS than a Dragoon does?
Congrats you're now more useful than having a dragoon, supposing you never die.

Dragoon gives Crit rate buff to party and give a pretty significant DPS buff to Bards / Mech though. Especially if you had the 15% crit buff on Bards who scales extremely well with crits since it refreshes Bloodletter.
Ninja on his part would be more useful if you have problems with your enmity generation in your group but that shouldn't happen in raid team, also Goad can be pretty useful though.

My personnal favorite is the dragoon, after that I don't really mind if we have a Ninja or a Dragoon in our Raid comp.

[Violette]

Wait, what support do Dragoon's bring, really?


Dragoon's bring critical up (Woo) and damage up for brd/mch (woo).
And that's all well and good, but that's not support.

See, back in 3.0/3.1, damage was not heavy throughout raids. Because of this (though we must tip our hats to the magic heavy meta and paladin's sucking), monk's spot as the prime SUPPORT DPS was quickly replaced by A) Drk's Int down B) Scholar's new found Barrier boner and C) Damage being king.

Every fight was a damage check with minimal mechanics and no prolonged damage phases (which meant healing was more burst less sustained). Because of trick attack and critical damage buff and the bard buff, dragoons became heavily favoured in game for their ability to make more damage (something monks small damage lead couldn't cover).

But in the move towards mechanics intensive raids of 3.2, we saw several factors change.
1. The raids were no longer magic damage heavy, meaning paladin's unique cooldowns/shield were no longer useless.
2. Damage was not as important as doing mechanics properly (unless you're cutting edge, where everything is important).
3. We saw an increase of sustained dps phases where healers had to be constantly healing.
4. Paladin's no longer sucked.


The last is possible the most important, with their damage being competitive with dark knights they had equal claim to the MT spot. Further more, there being less tank busters, more emphasis on swapping and more heavy AoE damage, paladins were more healthy for progression than previously.

So what happened, was groups have been moving towards more defensive groups, with pld+mnk's defensive utility (str/int down, bubble, shelltron, boosted mantra) being used to replace the only support drk+drg bought, which was more dps. Even Drk/Mnk, because monk was safer than drg.
Of course, this isn't much of a dps LOSS given that pld/mnk both saw damage increases in 3.2.

[Greywolfamakir]

DRG/NIN comp is the strongest in terms of Raid DPS, I mean, with DRG/NIN, the overall DPS is gonna be higher than other melee comp, just that.

Other comps like NIN/MNK bring Trick + Agro management + Mantra + Dragon Kick, this is a mix of Defensive and Offensive features.

Melee comp during Gordias was around DRG/NIN because DPS checks were pretty hard and you were searching the best Raid DPS comp, but now, with Midas, You can use any composition.

[Melch]

DRG/NIN comp is the strongest in terms of Raid DPS, I mean, with DRG/NIN, the overall DPS is gonna be higher than other melee comp, just that.

Other comps like NIN/MNK bring Trick + Agro management + Mantra + Dragon Kick, this is a mix of Defensive and Offensive features.

Melee comp during Gordias was around DRG/NIN because DPS checks were pretty hard and you were searching the best Raid DPS comp, but now, with Midas, You can use any composition.

on a 12 mins fight, it seems like ninja brings 1.67% more raid dmg overall because of trick attack, and that's assuming ninja is doing as much dps as a monk.

[Greywolfamakir]

on a 12 mins fight, it seems like ninja brings 1.67% more raid dmg overall because of trick attack, and that's assuming ninja is doing as much dps as a monk.

Trick Attack and Battle Litany are really strong when you have burn DPS phases like Hand of Pain in A3S, or third leg of A4S, I mean, It's not all about "Trick Attack brings just 1.67% overall DPS in a 12 mins encounter". Trick Attack, Battle Litany, Disembowel, Storm's Eye and Hypercharge/Foe Requiem are the strongest skills for Burn phases, i mean, that skill at the same time than personal buffs like Blood for Blood, Internal Realease, Raging Strikes...etc etc are the highest DPS combo in the game currently.

In FFXIV buffs are multiplicatives, then if your party does not see when NIN is using Trick and just ignore it, Trick Attack is not the big thing, but if party members know when Trick Attack is up and they pop CDs, Trick Attack is pretty pretty strong.

Currently, MCH/BRD are doing really really crazy DPS in Midas, Disembowel brings +10% damage to them, it's not a portion of DPS you can ignore, because Disembowel is ~99% uptime.

But like i said, DRG+NIN is a Raid DPS combo.