Blood Weapon / other DRK suggestions:

[KrenianKandos]

Yeah, I absolutely agree. 120s is definitely a bit excessive for what it does. I think it's a fine skill is what all I was trying to get at - people were saying the effect was garbage, and I disagree with that. I agree it just needs to have a shorter cooldown - be a bit more accessible and on-demand than it currently is. That'd make it a pretty worthwhile skill. Wouldn't change its effectiveness in raid content (which imo is already just fine) but would drastically improve its utility in dungeons (which is where it'd definitely find the most effective use).

The most upsetting thing is how it's essentially worthless in PvP. Setting it on a target is rarely gonna pan out for you, because the timeframe during which you'd have to use it is a timeframe in which you'd be spamming like every offensive skill you have to make the dude die xD It's nearly impossible to predict when those 15s will pay off.

On a PvE aspect, I think the skill is just lackluster compared to it's comparables: Mercy Stroke is simply flat out better for the use. I think if Soul Survivor was more in line with that, it would be a neater skill, but then you would have people screaming about homogenization and seriously, I'd be one of them too. I like differences between my classes. My only argument is that the skill itself is kinda boring. That's all. It's a fire, forget, and hope the thing dies within 15 seconds. I'm sure it has its uses but it just flat out isn't really required to be used. But on that note, so is Mercy Stroke.

On a PvP aspect, I can't honestly see the justification to ever use it because of the nature of the fight. And I don't think it ever was meant for a PvP use, really. You spike down people to get them to die before the healers realize who's being targeted. You can't honestly have enough clairvoyance to know when to fire it and have it ACTUALLY fire off with a kill. So yeah, I don't PvP but I could definitely see the uselessness.

Maybe they should just make it a 20% and below attack which is on a 15 second CD. That way, you feel like you can fire it and it'll do something...


Something of a caveat as to why exactly Soul Survivor is not the greatest of skills for me: I normally run with a SMN and BLM as my DPS in my runs, and a WHM healer. As such, there's a lot of AoE and the unpredictability of blowing SoSu on an add is difficult at best. I actually have to try to figure out at around 20% who to choose and at that point, with the amount I pull (I can normally pull 3 groups with ease but I have to pay attention to AoE because with Ranged as my DPS, direction doesn't necessarily matter anymore.) it distracts me from doing my job if I have to guess. So at that point, I actually forget the skill period. But with that in mind, I normally finish my fights with above 60% Mana so I can walk to the next group and have enough to do my opening.

Which leads me to my opening on these groups: I use a very mana intensive rotation to open up in order for my casters to go balls to the walls when attacking. And even then, I sometimes lose on aggro because of having so much chaos going or if I get unlucky with a tick or a hit or if my WHM wife decides to Holy too early while Blood Price is up.

Gather everything together, and by this point, I've already used Unleashed and Plunge as well as Scourge on some adds to keep them on me. At this point, this means I'm not at 100% mana. Drop Bubble, Unleash a couple of times, DAAS to get health/aggro, and DADP to blind them. That's a REALLY intensive amount of mana. We're talking at least around 80%+ of my mana at full bar. This is why I actually try to finish fights beyond 60% of my mana in order to make things smooth. And that honestly removes the absolute need of using SoSu.

It really depends on your playstyle. If you do it right, SoSu is pointless. Because, I have other things to do than to fire something that is somewhat meh. And yet, I still can fire off Mercy Stroke from time to time. It's because it's a one time shot that has DPS increase skills and allows me to kill something faster.

SoSu does nothing but when it dies. maybe if it had a damage DoT component..? That's all I can think of that would help.


Oh! Why not make it a 15 second cast, but a DoT drain? Every tick gives you a certain amount of mana/health! This would probably kill off the whole need of the burst at the end but I think it would be neat if it's some sort of DoT you apply to a mob that does a drain of sorts. If you want to keep it as something of a final attack, you could make it 20% only activated but I think that would be a neater way of dealing with that attack and keep it in line with Dark Knights.

Thoughts?

[JackFross]

As for DA-CnS: Sure, I can reserve it to use with DA. Provided I don't have to redirect too much mana into defensive CDs, because I have the habit of rotating them, so I almost always have grit + some CD going.

DA defensive cooldowns aren't things you just use because it's a cooldown and you want mitigation. You're supposed to time those properly so that they DON'T become a drain on your mana. And there's only two defensive cooldowns that eat Mana, anyway, and neither of them tend to be super useful in single-target fights outside of specific instances in raids for DA+DM.

Using CnS without buff on single target is also absolutely fine, if you sit in Grit or no, because of reasons, that may happen.
CnS has mana recover and it shoudn't be discarded, or said that starving for mana was played wrong as DRK. i am always around 40%-20% mana after dropping grit between Blood Weapon cooldowns. And I know how to DRK, trust me. :P

It can absolutely be said that if you're starved for Mana at the 60s mark when CaS comes off cooldown (or at the 30s mark when Dark Passenger is back), you mismanaged your Mana. Like. That's exactly what it means. In a single-target situation, as I just mentioned, your Mana is only used to DA a Souleater or to shoot off Dark Passenger and DA+CaS. If you're lacking for the latter two, you wasted too much on the former one. I say wasted, because DA+SE is the least efficient use of Mana and should only be used when you'll otherwise hit maximum, or when you'll still have enough for the next DP / DA+CaS if they're about to come off cooldown.

Any time you're using CaS for Mana in a single-target encounter, you overextended your Mana reserves. It happens to the best Dark Knights, but that doesn't mean it's "fine" when considering how to play the class optimally.

On a PvE aspect, I think the skill is just lackluster compared to it's comparables

Thoughts?

This whole discussion is super fair. You bring up a lot of good points I hadn't really thought about. Sure, you can play it assuming you have SoSu, but you can also play it just fine without even ever having the skill. And that's where you guys are all seeing an issue. Sorry for being such a blockhead. D:

That said, not sure about the dot drain - it sounds similar to Circle of Scorn, but I like that idea. Something you can only activate when you're at low health which gives you some sort of regen effect. A DoT drain, heals when you take damage (like BP for Health), or even just a flat regen effect on yourself. It'd synergize well with Living Dead in any of these scenarios, and would overall be a better addition to the kit, for sure.

[KrenianKandos]

This whole discussion is super fair. You bring up a lot of good points I hadn't really thought about. Sure, you can play it assuming you have SoSu, but you can also play it just fine without even ever having the skill. And that's where you guys are all seeing an issue. Sorry for being such a blockhead. D:

That said, not sure about the dot drain - it sounds similar to Circle of Scorn, but I like that idea. Something you can only activate when you're at low health which gives you some sort of regen effect. A DoT drain, heals when you take damage (like BP for Health), or even just a flat regen effect on yourself. It'd synergize well with Living Dead in any of these scenarios, and would overall be a better addition to the kit, for sure.

What is a forum if not a place for people to bounce ideas? I've had my disagreements with individuals on this thread alone but that doesn't mean I'm not open to conversation. No need to apologize. We all get stubborn. =)

The DoT would fall in line with the lore of Dark Knight. It would also give us some sort of sustained heal while damaging an enemy, similar to Mercy Stroke but a different flavor/style. Yeah, it could be worse if the damage on that one mob actually dies before the tick goes through, but the idea is to make it different enough to feel like a skill that belongs with the Dark Knight and useful without it being nothing until something dies.

[Yuni_Queen]

In a single-target situation, as I just mentioned, your Mana is only used to DA a Souleater or to shoot off Dark Passenger and DA+CaS. If you're lacking for the latter two, you wasted too much on the former one. I say wasted, because DA+SE is the least efficient use of Mana and should only be used when you'll otherwise hit maximum, or when you'll still have enough for the next DP / DA+CaS if they're about to come off cooldown.

Wait, wait! On single target if you have to choose between DA+SE or DA+DP you choose DA+SE D: 140 more potency compared to additional 100 and blind.
Of course, you should conserve enough mana to buff CnS, but you speak about perfect situation when you can hold static 30% mp without intrusions, i of course had in mind situation that has gotten out of control due to anything.

The DoT would fall in line with the lore of Dark Knight. It would also give us some sort of sustained heal while damaging an enemy, similar to Mercy Stroke but a different flavor/style. Yeah, it could be worse if the damage on that one mob actually dies before the tick goes through

Actually once the mob die, DRK could regain remaining DoTs timer in an instant. Oh! Like Thundercloud for BLM is working, if you know what i mean. But i quess that would be OP. Ultimate healing.

[Granyala]

DA defensive cooldowns aren't things you just use because it's a cooldown and you want mitigation. You're supposed to time those properly so that they DON'T become a drain on your mana.

Mitigation is mitigation and as a tank my job is to mitigate as much damage as possible.
I see nothing wrong with using them on CD (the blue one at least) unless you know sth is going to happen later where you need it.

Though usually I am mana starved because I have to spam the TP combo since, as a hobbytank with rather crappy gear, the osmosis combo doesn't generate enough threat against well geared DPS and Dark side slowly drains my mana.

[JackFross]

Wait, wait! On single target if you have to choose between DA+SE or DA+DP you choose DA+SE D: 140 more potency compared to additional 100 and blind.

I mean, I ignored the DA+DP option because that's just nonsense to use in single-target.

Also. 120 potency. Not 140.
DA+SE is 400.
SE is 260.
Delirium is 280.
If you're not using DA, you use Delirium, not Souleater. Always. Every time. The leech from Souleater in Grit is never /ever/ what'll save you from death, except in rare cases when under DA. I use SE in trash pulls (unless there's a caster mob to slap with Delirium) because my health drops a lot more consistently there.

But you should usually not even be in Grit, so the leech doesn't matter!

Of course, you should conserve enough mana to buff CnS, but you speak about perfect situation when you can hold static 30% mp without intrusions, i of course had in mind situation that has gotten out of control due to anything.

I'm speaking about every situation. You should never be burning Mana in situations where something gets out of control. You only use Mana for defense on two skills which are not panic buttons. You don't spend Mana to press Living Dead or Shadow Wall or Shadowskin, only to add Evasion to Dark Dance (an unreliable way to curb a down-turn situation) or bolster the magic resist on Dark Mind (a skill that also doesn't curb a down-turn situation except against very specific bosses).

There's no reason your Mana will not be prepared for DA+CaS and DP unless you manage it improperly (skipping Blood Price, using too much DA+SE, or spamming PS are the only ways this happens - spamming PS is never necessary if you don't drop Grit, and if you DO drop Grit, PS use is outweighed significantly by Blood Weapon.

Mitigation is mitigation and as a tank my job is to mitigate as much damage as possible.
I see nothing wrong with using them on CD (the blue one at least) unless you know sth is going to happen later where you need it.

Though usually I am mana starved because I have to spam the TP combo since, as a hobbytank with rather crappy gear, the osmosis combo doesn't generate enough threat against well geared DPS and Dark side slowly drains my mana.

Mitigation is mitigation, but I will just never agree that you should be burning DA+DM or DA+DD on cooldown. Using them WITHOUT DA on cooldown, sure. But with it? Absolutely not. And, even if you /are/ doing that, you get 3-4 DA+SE between shots of DA+CaS - turning one of those into a DA+DD doesn't mean you won't have mana for DA+CaS or for DP. It's still on that same 60s cooldown.

I definitely feel you on the latter, though. Power Slash is a huge drain on Mana when out of Grit. I've never had issues holding hate after one shot of PS while in Grit, though, so I dunno about there - and that's with my DRK being my alt Job at ~i216 selling content with i230+ dps with their 2200-3000 dps openers. As soon as that Power Slash falls, the boss is mine. I tend to stay in Grit if I have dps who are doing that much damage (and thus never need more PS unless the WHM/AST is overhealing) since there's no reason to risk a wipe for my dps boost when I have 4 dps pulling 1400+.

And out of Grit, Blood Weapon offsets the loss from Power Slash substantially. I'll get actual numbers on that later. But if I were to give a rough estimate, 1 Blood Weapon is ~3 shots of Syphon Strike, it feels like, so just one cast of it offsets three Power Slashes. Though it's highly likely I'm overestimating how much Mana Blood Weapon gives.