So, what's with the lack of Machinist in DF?

[Kaurie]

All I was doing was buffs

Already better than 99% of players in Duty Finder.

[Aethaeryn]

well the trouble is the dps of the machinist are quite random in comparaison of some other class, means is not as fun than other to play.

Not really that random, especially with quick reload being 15s now. You might have some random outliers where you get all crits or no crits during your opening wildfire, but even that doesn't make a huge difference in a longer battle.

MCHs and BRDs makes every run feels so slow.
not to mention the lack of melee lb.

when i queue as drg and i get paired with brd/mch and the heal/tank are non dpsing whm and pld, it feels like i do 80% of the damage

It's duty finder. I run into just as many terrible dragoons as I do bards/machinists. Seriously, like people who would do better if they just stood there and spammed their 123 combo. Also, melee that don't aoe ever...

[Velhart]

Honestly, the Holy Trinity has ruined so many MMOs its not even funny or fun anymore. I agree there should be roles, but "Utility", "Support", "Puller", "Crowd Control" ect ect seems dead.

Because people would not want them in normal situations. This isn't FFXI. You can just add these roles within jobs within the trinity and still keep things balanced. You are asking for something that comes from a completely different combat system.

[Kaurie]

Because people would not want them in normal situations. This isn't FFXI. You can just add these roles within jobs within the trinity and still keep things balanced. You are asking for something that comes from a completely different combat system.

Yeah, I miss the vast array of different roles there were in Guild Wars 1 - and missions / encounters were actually designed around it. i.e. You wanted to bring that archer for pulling + interrupting the healer. The fact that it did less DPS than something else wasn't important, because if you weren't interrupting the healer - the extra damage was null anyway.

[RiceisNice]

Brd and mch are both in a tricky place right here. They're essentially casters (whether you care to admit it or not) and I know some players would rather opt out for a true caster (that brings the large numbers) rather than a poor mans one that won't get the satisfaction of a deathflare or Fire iv. On top of that, the leveling process of a mch at first was a horrendous process; pre 40 dps is relatively low without a turret, and GB was a damage loss. In general it was kind of a flat job, esp for people whom previously played bard

[Warlyx]

support will work if light partys are 6 and full party 12....and even then ....ugh , support jobs are so boring to play

[Theodric]

Unfortunately MCH and BRD aren't really treated as proper DPS jobs but rather 'support' jobs. A dubious concept in a game that doesn't have any real room for a 'support' class outside of high end content. For the majority of content a lot of people tend to prefer having the spot filled by a pure DPS class since usually that makes things quicker. It's a shame - I like the idea and aesthetics of a MCH but it feels very clunky, random and like I'm dragging my party down by not pumping out as much damage as I would on a DRG.

[Welsper59]

Unfortunately MCH and BRD aren't really treated as proper DPS jobs but rather 'support' jobs. A dubious concept in a game that doesn't have any real room for a 'support' class outside of high end content. For the majority of content a lot of people tend to prefer having the spot filled by a pure DPS class since usually that makes things quicker. It's a shame - I like the idea and aesthetics of a MCH but it feels very clunky, random and like I'm dragging my party down by not pumping out as much damage as I would on a DRG.

Its sadly always been that way with this game, since they nerfed the output of BRD for the reason of complete mobility... which they later obviously also decided to nerf lol. Gotta love how that works. The damage reduction while having regenerative songs up was originally the entire reason why it was okay that BRD could keep a high output outside of that. It was absolutely justified to nerf BRDs output because of complete mobile freedom.

Now that the unique excessive mobility is essentially gone (compared to other jobs), why the mental reasoning of the first nerf still remains is not entirely justified, particularly when you consider the true situational support buffs that BRD has still reduces damage done. Had to stress that a second time. Under the guise of being a "support" DPS though, it remains. For some odd reason, other jobs got support abilities that are absolutely great to use in all situations... but no nerfs or reduction of personal output when using it. Makes sense though when you just look at the name and absolutely nothing else, I guess. "Bard" just screams "support" in these games, just gotta ignore the fact the role does not exist nor the whole archer gameplay.

[Velhart]

snip

Its a gray area argument on letting BRD/MCH be pure DPS with the support they provide. I want to say yes make it possible to balance it out better, but I understand it's situation. Still, what is bothersome is they give me WM/GB stance, but all it does is have you back at where you were in terms of DPS performance similar to being lv.50. It still does not make you a pure DPS on a general level. They did a major change to how BRD plays without it feeling beneficial besides having a few moves open that are not very unique.

I personally like casting while shooting, feels like Marksman Hunter in WoW which I enjoyed. I do see the argument however that we switched to a stance to just keep up instead of making it be actually better.

Like I said, its a very iffy argument, because giving power or not enough power to the support role DPS can make things very unbalanced.

On the other hand, if you actually take time to git gud at your job, then BRD/MCH can keep up with melee easily, and I am talking about good melee players, not cruddy ones. So I question if it is more of a problem with the job or the players using it.

[Welsper59]

Its a gray area argument on letting BRD/MCH be pure DPS with the support they provide. I want to say yes make it possible to balance it out better, but I understand it's situation. Still, what is bothersome is they give me WM/GB stance, but all it does is have you back at where you were in terms of DPS performance similar to being lv.50. It still does not make you a pure DPS on a general level. They did a major change to how BRD plays without it feeling beneficial besides having a few moves open that are not very unique.

I personally like casting while shooting, feels like Marksman Hunter in WoW which I enjoyed. I do see the argument however that we switched to a stance to just keep up instead of making it be actually better.

Like I said, its a very iffy argument, because giving power or not enough power to the support role DPS can make things very unbalanced.

On the other hand, if you actually take time to git gud at your job, then BRD/MCH can keep up with melee easily, and I am talking about good melee players, not cruddy ones. So I question if it is more of a problem with the job or the players using it.

Oh yeah, I get you on that. I'm not necessarily saying BRD shouldn't be lower due to useful party buffs. What I am saying though is how the situation is entirely one-sided, forced, and easily forgettable/overlooked. I've said it time and again, but the XIV devs/Yoshi-P are people of great ideas... but their execution is one of the worst, though that's not to say they don't hit some homeruns from time to time.

Why force a non-existent role upon a job that is forced to an existing one that ends up keeping it from fulfilling said role as well as others? To add to it, why do that but then give other jobs support abilities that are universally appreciated? Why give other jobs skills/spells that could easily be given to the jobs that are forced into the non-existent role? Why not dedicate more effort into establishing the non-existent role by bettering what those jobs do for it?

It just doesn't make sense that a couple jobs are full-time kept below others for extremely situational, but very useful, abilities that also reduce your direct roles purpose while used, while others who get always useful buffs don't meet the same fate... again, unless we're just simply looking at the name. Their entire reasoning behind nerfing BRD output was because of stuff that has now been made a non-issue (mobility). Now that it has been established as an accepted outlook, the non-existent role is just a given as they continue to add things that would help that outlook to other jobs without consequence lol.

Mind you, this isn't referring to things like Protect and such, but rather buffs that add crit to the party or whatever other secondary thoughts that DPS jobs get.