Ninja Raiton VS Fuma

[SunnyHirose]

I've seen that sheet. However, the math there isn't nearly as good as what I just posted

Some problems with that sheet (in order of significance):

- It assumes you don't use DoTs. That's a big proportion of your GCD damage (~18-19%), so that's a poor assumption.
- It does not account for the extra cooldown time induced by Raiton.
- Hence, it does not account for additional Trick Attack downtime, either.
- By putting it at the top of the document, it gives more prominence to the "additive buffs" theory--which has been discredited since 2013--than to the multiplicative buffs.

I've only now been putting a NIN model together after putting it off for so long, but the preliminary results suggest that using Raiton only is overall ~1 DPS loss at current gear levels (with an average ~10.5% GCD clip). So, not that this matters a lot, but I'm still pretty sure I'm right, neener neener.

[DarkerOrange]

eh, I get higher dps by using raiton, and so do the NINs on my server I've spoken to about it. *Shrug*

[Sigmakan]

Assigning PPS for Raiton/Fuma is only valid if you're perfect about using ninjutsu as soon as its up (which will never be the case), and also for an infinitely long fight. The difference in mudra cooldown from using Raiton to Fuma is so negligible that you'll never gain another ninjutsu cast by using Fuma exclusively, as such, normalizing the damage for Raiton and Fuma isn't really applicable.

I use a mix of Raiton and Fuma. Raiton for when im doing TA and/or Kassatsu or have buffs up. Fuma for when I dont have buffs, or know I'll be very tight fitting in a GCD before a jump/invuln. One case where I use raiton a lot is when attacking a new add. If mudras are up and ready its best to use Raiton right away since slashing buff isnt up. If you wait for slashing buff to get up and then use Fuma, you're likely missing 6-8seconds on your mudra cooldown.

They both have their uses.

[SunnyHirose]

Assigning PPS for Raiton/Fuma is only valid if you're perfect about using ninjutsu as soon as its up (which will never be the case), and also for an infinitely long fight. The difference in mudra cooldown from using Raiton to Fuma is so negligible that you'll never gain another ninjutsu cast by using Fuma exclusively, as such, normalizing the damage for Raiton and Fuma isn't really applicable.

I do it often enough in practice to claim that nearly all my Shuriken usage is off cooldown. If anything, these numbers are biased towards Raiton's effectiveness because in practice you'd be more likely to need to wait on the GCD for it at times when Shuriken is available right away. So I disagree both that the time difference is negligible and that it is impracticable to use ninjutsu this way.

And we don't theorycraft infinite duration because you actually have that much uptime; we do it because it's a probabilistic measure for indeterminate cutoffs. This is useful for when we're looking for "best practices" in an imperfect world instead of micro-optimizing a run (and considering the statement I am refuting is "Raiton always", the duration "for all time" seems appropriate anyhow). There are plenty of superstar DPS who say goofball things along those lines, when in truth 99% of what they really do right is kiss the ring of the DPS Don and swear their fealty to Uptime the King.

Even putting it in concrete terms, though, we can see that it's not really about any extra ninjutsu. We can estimate that after a full-uptime Ninjutsu loop (~130.1s 2xSuiton 1xRaiton 4xShuriken vs. ~132.1s 2xSuiton 5xRaiton) we've gained nearly a full GCD in the same timespan. Sac ~200 potency from Ninjutsu over this period to gain a whole GCD? Realistically short timeframe? ((Yes, please.))

Raiton may not be so bad as that in actuality, but I do need accurate mudra timings that aren't from pre-3.1 to show that. And to repeat myself, one or the other will be a clearly better candidate instead of a near toss-up depending on the situation.